00:00:11.000 - 00:02:05.000

Crew Member #1:: Sta-, slate it. Crew Member #2:: Black Champions, March 30, 1985; William Johnson. Sound 91, sound roll 30, camera roll 61. Interviewer:: Mr. Johnson, I wonder if we could begin our talk by having you tell us a little bit about where you grew up- William Johnson:: I, I was born, Sparta, Georgia, November twenty-first, 1895. And, after I was about three or four years old, we moved to Lithonia, Georgia, and was, I stayed in Lithonia until I was nineteen; then went to the Army, spent three years and a half in Hawaii; about a year and a half in the Mexican borders. I was discharged out of the Army in October the 6, 1919. [[slate]] Interviewer:: When you got out of the service, is- did, did you play ball in the service? William Johnson:: Yes, I played ball in the service; we were supposed to have had the best ball club in the United States Army. S- Six of the players went to the Kansas City Monarchs. So I came East, and that's where we divided. Interviewer:: Where did you first play professional baseball? William Johnson:: Dayton Marcos, nineteen twenty. That's from Dayton, Ohio. Interviewer:: What was your, what was your position- William Johnson:: Well, it was three of 'em. And we had to have more than one, because we didn't have enough ball players. I was c- catcher, outfielder, and first baseman.

00:02:06.000 - 00:04:07.000

Interviewer:: Tell us about the style of your game. Were you an outstanding hitter? Were you a better fielder than a hitter? What, tell us a little bit about- William Johnson:: Well, my hittin' was about two-eighty or two-ninety; and I was supposed to be one of the fastest men we had in service. In fact, I ran against two men, that was in the World's Fair 1915, and they were the only two that beat me in my regiment. Interviewer:: When you started playing for the Marcos in, in Dayton, how, how old were you then? William Johnson:: Well, the nineteen twenty? Well, I was born in ninety-five [laughs] so [laughs] Interviewer:: So you started playing professionally when you were about twenty-five years old. William Johnson:: Yeah. Interviewer:: What kind of ball club were the Marcos? William Johnson:: Marcos was not th-, as good a ball club that I had, that I did play on eventually, but I think the Hilldale ball club, Philadelphia, which later become the Philly Stars, and the Harrisburg Giants, and the Homestead Grays. Now they were the, about the best teams that I played with. Interviewer:: We've all heard that ball clubs of this sort did a lot of traveling- William Johnson:: Quite a bit. Interviewer:: Tell us a little bit about that. William Johnson:: Well, I was traveling, but mostly by [missing frames] car. Except the first year we, when I was in Dayton, we did ride the trains then; but after that, why, we traveled by car. And, occasionally, probably the car break down, they put about eight or nine of us [laughs] in one car, and we get there as best we could. So, in one instance, I went to bed; I got up out of the bed Thursday morning, and didn't go back to bed until Sunday after midnight. All that time I was playin' ball and runnin;' I mean, I was in the car, makin' from town to town. [missing frames] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]]

00:04:08.000 - 00:05:07.000

Interviewer:: How many, how many players generally- William Johnson:: We had about fourteen to sixteen. Interviewer:: And did the, were the games booked by, who- William Johnson:: No, they did- Oh yes, they were booked. I thought you meant where they are given the publicity that the teams were given. No, they didn't have it; they didn't have anybody to write them up that much. Interviewer:: Wh-, what was the process of arranging the games? Who, who, who did that? William Johnson:: Well, Nat Strong arranged the games in New York; and then when I was in the West, why, I was in the league there, most of the time, so it was did, was done by the league. Interviewer:: Tell me about the, the player. When you played for the Marcos, who, who were the outstanding players of that time, around 1920- William Johnson:: Well, well, and, and, tell you the truth I don't remember many of the guys that was on the ball club with me. Eggerson was one, was a catcher; John Beckwith was one; they was the most outstanding ones.

00:05:08.000 - 00:06:27.000

Interviewer:: Who were the outstanding opponents? I mean, were you playing against people- William Johnson:: Oh, yes, American Giants, ABCs out of Indianapolis, Kansas City Monarchs. That was 'bout - and then, Chicago Giants, they were out of Chicago. That was 'bout wh-, the league. Interviewer:: And what kind of crowds did it draw? William Johnson:: Well, Kansas City was about the best drawin' town, what, outside of Chicago. Chicago, what I say Chicago and Kansas City about the best drawin' town. We'd have probably eight or ten, maybe sometime fifteen thousand people there. Interviewer:: Do you remember in this period with the Monarchs, was, was Paige playing with them? William Johnson:: No, no, that was before Paige. It, when I with the Mona-, played against the Monarchs, that was 1920. I played against Paige 1926. He was with Chattanooga and I was with the Atlanta ball club. Interviewer:: Tell us a little bit about Paige. William Johnson:: Paige? Well, [missing frames] the first ballgame I played against Paige, shook me out the first time, and then I was lucky enough to hit him four straight times, after that in that one ballgame. And I don't think I got four hits all the rest of the time I played against him. [laughs] [missing frames] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]]

00:06:28.000 - 00:07:32.000

Interviewer:: What did he throw? William Johnson:: Mostly fastballs. But his control was pretty good. Very good. Interviewer:: Were there any other pitchers during that period who were on a par with him? William Johnson:: No. Not- Let me think. Bill Holland, Nip Winters, Phil Cockrell; they were the outstandin' pitchers back in those days. Interviewer:: Did you play against Smokey Joe Williams? William Johnson:: I played with Joe, but I never, never played against him. I played with Joe down Palm Beach, 1931. I went down there that season; stayed down there. Joe had the ball club down there. Interviewer:: We've heard quite a bit about what a fast, and very good good pitcher he was. Tell us a little bit about it. William Johnson:: Who? Well, at the time when I was there, Joe had passed his peak. But he still had the savvy, and he was pitchin' on his head more so than he was his ability to pitch; I mean f- far as, as far as physical ability.

00:07:33.000 - 00:09:25.000

Interviewer:: If you were to pick the outstanding pitcher that you either faced or played with, who, who would that be? William Johnson:: Rogan, of the Monarchs, which was in the Army with. Interviewer:: Bullet Joe? William Johnson:: Bullet Joe Rogan. And Phil Cockrell, Nip Winters, Bill Holland. They were about the most outstanding ones, 'bout the time when I was there. Interviewer:: During this period, as good as some of these guys were, how did they feel about not being able to play in the Majors? William Johnson:: Well, it was seldom discussed. It was a foregone conclusion that you could not get there, so, it, what, it didn't bother us. Interviewer:: Did you feel that the, the quality of the game you were playing made up for the fact that- William Johnson:: It, it, it was proven. They started carrying a group down to Cuba. There was a prize for every position: The best hitter, the fastest runner, the best pitcher. And the Negroes won most of 'em. So finally, they stopped the big league pitchers from going down there. They couldn't pitch after about along about the latter part of October. You know, the World Series wasn't over but a few days before then, so in that way, they, b-, Negroes that went down, didn't play against the other, the best pitchers. But they did until that time, and I think that was the reason they stopped playing 'em- stopped the pitchers from pitchin' due to the fact the publicity was given down there and it came here. Interviewer:: Did you take any of th-, were you on any of of those tours? William Johnson:: Down C-, Cuba? No, I never went to Cuba. At the time when I, I could have gone, I didn't wanna go; and then [laughs] later I wanted to [laughs] go and I couldn't go. [laughs]

00:09:26.000 - 00:10:54.000

Interviewer:: Did you play in your career against any major league players? William Johnson:: Well, now, what the heck was the guy's name? From Cincinnati. I've, I've forgotten his name now, but they used to come over to Honolulu, and our team was the only one that beat them one game and the others, fellas over there didn't beat them any, the big league player. Interviewer:: Did you, did you see or play with or against Josh Gibson? William Johnson:: Josh came along after I left, out of the league. Well, he came to the Homestead Grays, which was the team I played on for quite awhile, but I had left the Homestead Grays, in '24 - '23, [missing footage] that's the, 22 and 3 [missing footage] I was with the Grays. [[missing footage]] [[missing footage]] Interviewer:: What do you remember about him, because you saw him play? William Johnson:: Yeah. Oh, he was a heck of a hitter, no, no doubt. But, you pitch to the man's weakness. You have, you in there, but they, you learn how, if the man hits the ball hard to right field and he, he was a right-hand hitter, you wouldn't throw him anything on the outside. In other words, you put the ball across his wrists, as near as possible. And make him hit the other way. When he hits the other way, he hits his, to his weakness. Interviewer:: He, he's reported to have been a tremendously strong- William Johnson:: Oh, yeah, he was a powerful man [rollout on camera roll] William Johnson:: Yeah. Interviewer:: ...go back to Gibson- [[rollout on camera roll]] [[production discussion]] [[camera roll 62]] [[sound roll 30]]

00:10:55.000 - 00:12:48.000

Crew Member #1:: Sound ninety-two. Interviewer:: Let's go back to the 1920- William Johnson:: 20? Interviewer:: 1920, playing with the Dayton Marcos- William Johnson:: Right. Interviewer:: How many games would you play in the course of a season? William Johnson:: Well, we didn't have an extended s-, schedule; possibly eighty or ninety games. [[slate]] Interviewer:: And where, where would the Dayton team travel? What, where would you go to? William Johnson:: Well, from Indianapolis back as far as Kansas City: Indianapolis, St. Louis, Chicago, and some of the smaller towns, like weekday crowds, Akron, and one other town. Interviewer:: You leave the Dayton Marcos, and the next team you go to, tell us about it. William Johnson:: The next team I went to was Fields Giants, a small club that didn't last long, and in, in fact, it didn't get started. That was 1921; it, it was supposed to have been four Black teams and four White team- Interviewer:: Hold it just one second. Interviewer:: Okay. In, in 1921, I'm sorry- William Johnson:: It was supposed to have been four Black teams and four White teams, was gonna be in the league. But it, it didn't get off of the ground. Then I didn't play any b-, ball in '21, at all. I went south; my dad got sick, and I, I stayed out of baseball all that year. '22, I went to Homestead Grays. [[production discussion]] Interviewer:: Tell us about the Homestead Grays. That's a pretty well-known team. William Johnson:: Yep. I was the first outsider, I suppose you would call it, called in from the league, and then Walter Canada came up- Crew Member #1:: We're going to have to stop. Crew Member #2:: Slate. [[camera roll 62]] [[sound roll 30]]

00:12:49.000 - 00:15:24.000

Crew Member #1:: Sound ninety-three. Interviewer:: Mr. Johnson, you were telling us that d-, during 1921, your father was ill, you went south; you didn't play any more ball- William Johnson:: Tha-, Yeah- Interviewer:: -that year. William Johnson:: Yeah. Right. Interviewer:: Now what happens in 1922? William Johnson:: '22, we started off with Fields Giants, and that broke up before we got started good, but I did go over and play against Homestead Grays, and that's what got me the job at Homestead Grays, over at Pittsburgh. And, Ho-, Pittsburgh, at that time, just had home talent. And I was the first one that went over there from the league. Then Walter Canada came over; and later Jess Barber came. Wickware came there for awhile. Wickware was one of the most outstandin' pitchers at, at, at that time. Wickware and Walter Johnson was from the same town, Coffeyville, Kansas. Wickware was lucky enough to beat him one-nothing, so that, that was a crown in his throne. [laughs] [[slate]] Interviewer:: Who was the owner of the Homestead Grays? William Johnson:: Beg pardon? Interviewer:: Who was the owner of the Homestead Grays? William Johnson:: Owner, Home- Cum Posey. Interviewer:: Tell us about him. William Johnson:: Posey was, his father had any number of those boats travellin' up and down the river there, haulin' sand and coal. He was well enough off to have a chauffeur and a nurse, so he wasn't such a bad off fella. And Posey was a nice basketball player, you know, rac-, when they had the Renaissance here, why, he was playin' there, over in Pittsburgh. Interviewer:: Tell us a little bit about Pittsburgh during this period, and what, what it was like to be with the Homestead Grays. William Johnson:: Well, at that time, as I told you before about the automobile travel; now, when I would hit with the Homestead Grays, we played about 175 to 200 ballgames a year; and it was a kind of a round circuit. They went down West Virginia, Charleston, played down at Youngstown, Ohio, different places that they would re-, repeat every year. Interviewer:: Now, during the off season when you were with the Grays, did you play, did you go, or you mentioned Honolulu before. Did you- William Johnson:: Oh, I was in, I was in the Army in Honolulu. Interviewer:: Oh, I see. William Johnson:: We, I, we had a ball club over there. We were supposed to have been the best ball club in the Army.

00:15:25.000 - 00:16:25.000

Interviewer:: When you were with the Grays, during the winter months here, did you go and play another- William Johnson:: No. I went back to Cleveland then. I was livin' around Cleveland. I waited tables. I'd wait tables there in this, in the off season and go on back and play ball in the next year. Interviewer:: Now, how long did you stay with the Homestead Grays? William Johnson:: Two years; '22 and 3. Interviewer:: And then what happened? William Johnson:: I went over to Philly, with the Philadelphia Giants. Interviewer:: What was that experience like? Were- William Johnson:: Well, then MacLellan was, he was one of 'em was known as the only Black man pitched a perfect ballgame. He was the manager of the ball club. Well, he died some years later. Interviewer:: What position were you playing now at, when you went to Philadelphia? William Johnson:: I was catchin', play outfielder. I did play first base some, but not much in the, we-, with that ball club.

00:16:26.000 - 00:19:06.000

Interviewer:: What kind of ball club was the Philadelphia- William Johnson:: Philadelphia Giants was, was a fair, mediocre ball club. Enough to be going every day. But they didn't make enough money to, to hold up that year I was there. [laughs] So I finished that year with the Wilmingon Potomacs. And then the next year when I went out back to the Wilmington Potomacs, Wilmington Potomacs had gone, given over to Washington Potomacs; same ball club, just shifted to Washington. That's why we had our home games down Washington, D.C. Interviewer:: And, following that? William Johnson:: What's that? Interviewer:: Following the Washington Potomacs? William Johnson:: Well, after W-, Washington Potomacs, why, then I went over to- '26, '25, Harrisburg. I was with Harrisburg the rest of the season and '25 and 6, Harrisburg Giants. That was the [unintelligible] they had here, just a few minutes ago. After leavin' Harrisburg, I went to Hilldale ball club in Philadelphia, '27. So, I got more money than I had made in a year, which was $350 a month, but I didn't have a job to go back to the next year; I had the worst season I never had! [laughs] So that's, that brought me to New York. So, New York with Brooklyn Royals. And that 'bout wound up my baseball and I didn't have enough money to leave New York, so I stayed there. [laughs] Interviewer:: Let's talk about the really outstanding players that you saw during your career. Let's see if we can go position by position. You talk about the men who you thought were outstanding for, for that particular position. Let's talk about the pitchers first. William Johnson:: Bill Holland, Phil Cockrell; well, Rogan was ace; I'd put him ab-, above all of 'em. And, well, any number of others we had. But they, they was the most outstandin' ones. Interviewer:: Could you tell us a little bit about Rogan? What made him so good? William Johnson:: He had, he had the best curveball I've ever seen in my life. The fastest curveball-and, control with it. Interviewer:: He was a left-hander... William Johnson:: No, No-right-hander. Yeah, he, he weighed around 175, hu-, seventy, something like that. But, he, he played everywhere; all positions, and played like a regular man in ea, any position he played in.

00:19:07.000 - 00:21:36.000

Interviewer:: How about the outstanding catchers? William Johnson:: Well, Santop was the best hitter, but I saw several catchers that I thought was better catchers than he... S-, better than Santop. B-, B-, Mackey was one of them, and he was another all-around player, play an-, any position. He was one of the Texas boys. I think about four or five of 'em came up in 1920, when the... Interviewer:: What kind of a catcher, defensively; what kind of a catcher was Gibson? William Johnson:: Well, Gibson was a better hitter than he was a catcher. I, I don't think he was such a great... [missing frames] Well, hittin' is the thing that makes the runs. And so that's the thing that counts. An' the most runs, and that's why you win [laughs] so, that's what made him outstanding. [missing frames] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]] Interviewer:: How about the first baseman? William Johnson:: First basemen, oh, there was two or three of 'em. I think he's saying "Shilbo" Thomas was about the best one - and he was around here with the Lincoln Giants. And, le's see now, well, Hawkins, in the Army, was one of the outstanding one. An', let's see now, who else? Pedrosa; that was a Cuban boy, played with the, the Harrisburg club; very good first baseman. Interviewer:: And how about the second baseman? William Johnson:: Second baseman, I think I would take Warfield. Warfield was about the smartest one. Wasn't a great hitter, but he was a fielder and a brainy man. He beat Harrisburg one game in '25, it be, a, a, another time in '26, on the same play. It was a hit-n-run play from first, second base. And he scored on an infield play. W- he started off as the ball were bein' thrown. The ball was picked up, thrown to first, everybody thought he was goin' to stop at second. He kept goin'! So when they looked up it was too late. That's, that, that was one of the smartest tricks I've seen anybody ... Warfield did that on us two years straight, once each year, same play.

00:21:37.000 - 00:23:35.000

Interviewer:: Now, now, what ball club did Warfield play for? William Johnson:: Warfield wa-, was Hilldale Ball Club. That's the Hilldale Ball Club, was out of Philadelphia [rollout on camera roll] , which later was known as the Philly Stars. Interviewer:: We out? [[rollout on camera roll]] [[camera roll 63]] [[sound roll 31]] Crew Member #1:: Black Champions, Miles Film Productions, March 30, 1985, William Johnson; Sound roll 31, camera roll 63, sound 94. Interviewer:: Mr. Johnson, when we left off, we were talking about the outstanding second basemen, and you mentioned the player, Warfield. William Johnson:: Warfield, I think was, was my choice, yeah. Interviewer:: And he; tell us again, a little bit. He played for- William Johnson:: Warfield pla-, whe-, when I played against him it was Hilldale Ball Club, and I was with Harrisburg Giants at that time. So that was the same one I was talking about that beat us two straight years in the same play, scored from second on a bunt. Interviewer:: And he; tell us again, a little bit. He played for- William Johnson:: Oh, he was. Well, startin' off as a hit-and-run play, the ball wasn't hit till after he was almost at third base anyway, see. And, he just kept on goin'. [[slate]] Interviewer:: Who were the great shortstops of, of your time? William Johnson:: Lloyd - Lloyd and Lundy I think were the best ones. Lundy was a switch hitter; Lloyd was, he didn't have to hit, switch hit. He hit from in the s-; I mean, he hit pitchers on either side. L-, Lundy switched; I was a switch hitter, too. If left-handed was in there, I batted right-handed. Right handed, then I'd bat left. Interviewer:: Were they the best fielding shortstops as well? William Johnson:: Best fielding shortstop was Lundy and Lloyd. Interviewer:: How about the hit-, were they good hitters as well? William Johnson:: Lloyd was one of the best hitters in the league. He won when one of those championships down Cuba, while the big league was down there.

00:23:36.000 - 00:26:03.000

Interviewer:: We hear a lot about a player named Judy Johnson, was a third baseman. William Johnson:: Judy was the third baseman on Hilldale ball club that I was on. And I played against him any number of time. I got married in '27; his wife was first woman my wife met, when she came to Philly. Interviewer:: Tell us a little bit about Johnson [unintelligible] - William Johnson:: Johnson? He was one of the most outstanding and, with line drive hits, he didn't hit ball till it fall like those other heavy hitters. But, but he was a, a line-drive hitter. Interviewer:: Was he the outstanding fielding- William Johnson:: Why, yeah, both fieldin' and third b-; and third, and yeah. Yeah. Interviewer:: When you think of the great outfielders- William Johnson:: Well, I think I'll put it, the outfielder we had in Harrisburg was Charleston, Dixon, and... Charleston, Dixon, and let's see, why, I can't think of the other fellow's name. Fats Jenkins. They were the most outstandin'. The two years that I played ball in Harrisburg, I put out more men tryin' to score from third than I did all the other years together. That's how accurate they were in throwin'. And both, all, all three of 'em were good hitters. Interviewer:: What's the most unusual thing you ever saw happen in the ball field? Can you think of something that was really the most peculiar incident that happened during your career? William Johnson:: Well, maybe, I put myself in that one. I was playin' against a boy that I had played with and against him, and I got all, almost all down to second base position 'im, and he hit the ball right s-, almost straight to me, and all I could do is backhand it; and when I, when I backhanded the ball, I was off of the ground. I turned a complete flip and was standin', and everybody was standin' there with their mouth open when, when the play [laughs] was over. So, but I've seen a whole lotta other plays, but I think that was most outstandin' excitement; well, I had never turned a flip f-, before and I, neither had did afterward. [laughs]

00:26:04.000 - 00:28:53.000

Interviewer:: Can you recall the, the longest ball you ever saw anybody hit? William Johnson:: John Beckwith. Interviewer:: Tell- William Johnson:: John Beckwith hit one out of the Yankee Stadium. Yeah. And he hit one out of the park in Cincinnati. Interviewer:: Tell us about that, when he hit out of, out of Yankee Stadium. William Johnson:: Yankee Stadium? Went over the who-, whole entire park; over the s-, stands and everything out there. Oh, yeah. Yes, and, and Beck hit one out of Cincinnati, I was tol'. Very few balls were ever hit out of there. Well, back in those days, it was before the home run became so popular, and they shortened up a whole lot of f-, places to make it, why they could hit the home run; but made it shorter. Interviewer:: The, the art of bunting, pretty much lost in today's game... bunting. Do you remember some great bunters? William Johnson:: Well, our greatest bunters, I think in that time; Warfield was one of them. He was a right-hand hitter. But there were several left-handers. Take one step forward and you'd be on your way; you'd lean to first base, and when the ball would hit, why you'd go almost half way down there b-, before the man could get to it. We had several of 'em that were those kinda fella. Interviewer:: You mentioned earlier ... Foster, manager of a ball club you played for. Was he- William Johnson:: Ba-, m- Interviewer:: Foster? William Johnson:: Foster. Yes! He was a original, the starter of black baseball. He was a great pitcher. Right-hander. And then along later, his brother came up; I think his name was Willy Foster. So, he was quite a left-hand, I understand. I didn't never see him pitch but I heard of him. Interviewer:: Tell us about Rube Foster. He, he had a, a real, quite an effect on, on the whole game. William Johnson:: Well, I think he was about the smartest, black or white, man running a ball club I ever seen. Interviewer:: What, what kind of things did; what kind of special [unintelligible] - William Johnson:: Bun-, buntin' was his special. Yeah, that was his special. And, when he'd give signal, it, it could be with his hands, sometime w-, even with the pipe he had. He'd already be givin' the man the signal to bunt; if he sees everybody playin' for the bunt, when the pitcher throws the ball, he says hit, and then say it out loud where the man, anybody and everybody could hear it. But, they're out of position after the man hit, that's all. [laughs] Yeah.

00:28:54.000 - 00:31:22.000

Interviewer:: Did you play in the Yankee Stadium during your career? William Johnson:: I didn't play in the Yankee Stadium. I had gotten out of the league then. I was, I, I did play the first semi-pro All-Star Ball Club was supposed to have been; but they couldn't get the All-Star black boys together. So they had a white All-Star from all around New York; so then, it took the Pennsylvania Red Cap. I was with the Pennsylvania Red Cap. I was, or we were, lucky enough to beat the All-Star group. Interviewer:: I understand you managed a ball club for a- William Johnson:: Just for a short while down to Atlanta, but the ball club usually would break up every year; so I, w-, that's why I met Satchel. And then I went on back to Harrisburg at the year '26, and played ball in Harrisburg. I, I was down there about a month and a half or two months, something like that. Interviewer:: Were there, were there men in baseball who were, in your view, very good teachers who could teach other players how to do things in a, in a special sort of way? William Johnson:: Well, let's see now. What's the guy's name? I can't think of his name right now, but he was the smartest ball player, I mean, on, on, along that line. I don't know why I can't think of his name right now. I thought of it a few minutes ago. Yeah, but, so far as that buntin' inside baseball. I think Rube Foster was the b-, was the greatest we had. Interviewer:: Did you ever see Robinson, Jackie Robinson play before he went to the Major Leagues? William Johnson:: No. But I did meet Jackie when he was on the way down f-, his first year. Frank Forbes used to be the c-, count, knock-down man at the Yankee Stadium; he was a ball player. And then he had given up baseball. But F-, Forbes had a job workin' at a f-, a liquor store, and I went out from lunch; I was Post Office clerk then. And then Jackie was there, and For-, boy called me in, had to meet Jackie when he's, when he first went down. First year. Then later, why, Jackie had a office in the same buildin' I was working in when I was working with Filmway for awhile, moving picture television people.

00:31:23.000 - 00:33:28.000

Interviewer:: Some people have told me that when Robinson came up, he was a good ball player, but there were other ball players [unintelligible] - William Johnson:: I think there were several better men, but I do think Robinson was a, wa-, was a, a, a great pick. I feel that tho-, some of the other boys would probably hurt some of those white boys and if, n-, knock baseball back another fifty years. Interviewer:: Who, who were some of the players, just on the basis of their talent at that time, do you think could have gone into the major leagues along with Robinson? William Johnson:: Well, I'll start off with my ball club again. [laughs] There was Hawkins playin' first. Moore, playing third. Rogan was there. Their second baseman. Oh, Henry Johnson was there. He played outfield; I was catcher. And I played the opposition when he was catcher. So, th-, that was the group, the we had it. [rollout on camera roll] [[rollout on camera roll]] Interviewer:: Do you think Rogan could have pitched in the ... Are we out? [[camera roll 64]] [[sound roll 31]] Crew Member #1:: Cue. Slate. Ok, sound ninety-five. Interviewer:: I'm looking through the book you brought, and there are several people I'm sure you're fa-, whose names I'm sure you're familiar with. Perhaps we could get you to talk a little bit about them. William Johnson:: All right. Interviewer:: James "Cool Papa" Bell. William Johnson:: Yep. [missing frames] Cool Papa, I guess, what happens people don't know how he got the name, but they say; well, he was a fast man. And some say he could snap out the light and jump into bed before the r-, room [laughs] got dark. [missing frames] Or light. [laughs] That's where he got his name. But they s-, they claim, in arguments and things in the ballgame, he never said nothin'; let all the other fellas do all the ... he'd just stand by and listen. [laughs] [[slate]] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]]

00:33:29.000 - 00:35:28.000

Interviewer:: Did you play against him? William Johnson:: No, I d-, never played against him. But I, I saw him a couple of time. Interviewer:: We talked, we talked earlier about Judy Johnson- William Johnson:: Yeah. Interviewer:: Was the ou-, outstanding third baseman. There's another name here, Oscar Charleston. Did you know him? William Johnson:: [Nods] We were on the same ball club in t-, '25 an' 6 in Harrisburg. Interviewer:: Tell us a little bit about him. William Johnson:: Well, I'll tell you about the whole outfield. I think I told you this, something 'bout c-, I caught more men coming from third after, and Charleston was one of the fellas, he-, center fielder- Crew Member #1:: Cut. Interviewer:: What's that- [[Nods]] Crew Member #1:: Sound ninety-six. Interviewer:: You were telling us about how you had gotten more men out at home plate because of this great outfielder and one of the players was- William Johnson:: Ch-, Oscar Charleston. Well, I've seen them turn around as many as three time, goin' back to get a ball, he turned it back and run, and then turn around again and get it. As much as three times one, in, on the s-, on the same play. He about the fastest one I seen in, in, in the ... well, Charleston, Dixon and Fats Jenkins were the best outfielder I ever seen, I think. [[camera roll 64]] [[sound roll 31]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: When you think about the great players of this time, what, what, what are the ingredients that in your view make a great player. What kind of things go into a man who becomes a really great baseball player? William Johnson:: Well, speed is one thing. His ability to hit is another. And then, when he can think; a lotta times a man is not all that good, but he's, gets ahead of the play. He studies the man, and he be in a position to receive the ball as the ball is hit. A lot of time, when the other fella would have to make a heck of a effort to get it. So the other fella's standin' there and can get it with ease.

00:35:29.000 - 00:39:37.000

Interviewer:: Mr. Johnson, you told us before. You were a, a two-eighty, two-ninety hitter. That's, that's pretty good hitting. William Johnson:: Yes- Interviewer:: For that period. William Johnson:: Wasn't such bad. Interviewer:: Right. Were you a choke hitter? Were you- William Johnson:: No, No. I took the full cut. Interviewer:: [unintelligible] how you, how you held the bat. William Johnson:: Full cut [demonstrates] Full cut. Now, as they claim, John Henry Lloyd, most time, when he'd bat, bat left-handed, he'd just have the crook in the arm, and hold the bat in that. But mine was just the full cut. [[demonstrates]] Interviewer:: Did you hit many home runs? William Johnson:: No, I didn't hit many home runs. But- Interviewer:: You were hard driving? William Johnson:: Line-drive hitter, and I hit to the opposite field. If I bat right-handed, I'd hit to right field. Not that I t-, intended to do all that much, but it was a, an advantage to do it. I was late hittin' from either side. And if I bat left-handed, I hit to left field. Interviewer:: In a piece I was reading about you, it said that you were one of the most gentlemanly ball players- William Johnson:: Well, I don't know about that. [laughs] Interviewer:: Well, that's what, that's what the article said. Now, obviously some guys were not so gentlemanly, but you apparently were. Tell us a little about the temperament of, of ball players in your time. William Johnson:: Well, we had, not on on the ball club I was on, but I've tell- Shively for instance, s-, what you call a desperate ball player; base runner. Now I've seen him sit on the side of the, of the gr-, of the stand there, file the spikes on his shoe. Well they, everybody knew he was a fast man, and he would cut you if you standing in the way. So there was [laughs] intimidation before he got started. But some o' the fellas were pretty tough. Yeah, we did speak about Jackie Robinson. Well, now, I think Jackie was the best man we could have put there, but a whole lot of those fellas had the temperament that they wouldn't have, wouldn'a made it in the majors. Set it back probably ten, twelve years longer. And, if things had gone through, I might have been Jackie Robinson instead [laughs] because you could buy out of the Army at the time when I was in there. On your first enlistment, you could get out for a hundred and fifty dollars. If you could get out at all. Of course, the war come along, caught me in there, and the regular fella didn't get out. The group, a Mexican, was gonna carry the group all the way down Mexico City, but when Carranza and Villa were fightin' down there, asked the Americans for help, that thing kinda spoiled it. The man who win down there is the man who could take the other fella's position; like, well Pancho Villa was trying to take the presidency away from Carranza. And the Americans did help them out. So, the ball club didn't go down there after things got so bad. So that's the reason I say I, I mighta been Jackie Robinson or, [laughs] or, at, or one of them at least, to, to start black baseball into white. That was in 1919. Interviewer:: Our program, you know, all of the program is about champions, and championships. When you think about the term "champion" or "championship," what, what does it bring to mind to you? William Johnson:: Well, I'll tell you about the outfit over there; not braggin' on my outfit, but they were the champions every year while I was in there. They had a field meet sometimes two or three times a year. All the soldiers were trained and picked the best they had and have that field meet down Honolulu. So, the 25th Infantry won every meet while we were there. Only time, of the time we did lose the meet, was when we met another black outfit [laughs] which was in the way hey kicked us off in 1919. So, that's the way that went.

00:39:38.000 - 00:41:36.000

Interviewer:: Is there a person, in your mind, who exemplifies the spirit of the champion? Is there someone you would, you would say is maybe the champion's champion? William Johnson:: Rogan; John Henry Lloyd. Rogan was a fella played every position, and he, and he, and he was a great pitcher. John Henry Lloyd was a infielder, shortstop. Now they stood out more than anybody else, I think. And Oscar Charleston was in there too. Interviewer:: Can we stop? Camera Crew Member #1:: Cut. Camera Crew Member #2:: Slate it. Crew Member #1:: Sound ninety-seven. William Johnson:: Oscar [unintelligible] one of the best pitchers we had on the Homestead Grays; about the best. And he useta look at my hands and wish he had a hand as large and as long a fingers as I had. He was short; and he could throw a ball hard as anybody ever I seen. [laughs] So in that way I guess, partly, I, I, my, my hand was an ad-, an advantage to me, I suppose. Now, so far as the hittin' is concerned, after playin' ball for long as I did, why, I should be able to do something, you know, as a ball player would do it. [laughs] And the opposite, if on the left. I was fortunate enough to be, be an offense man. A lot of time I would lay the bunt down when nobody thought I's gonna lay it down. I had three hits in one ballgame, and the fourth time up, I bunted the ball. Third baseman was playin' back; he didn't make a play. So when I got down to first base, first baseman s-, looked at me and said, "Well, who in the hell woulda thought that you woulda bunted the ball. [laughs] Nobody would thought I was gonna bunt it, but when you bunt ya say it's a hit just the same when it go in the paper it's a hit. So. Interviewer:: Cut. [[camera roll 64]] [[sound roll 31]] [[slate]] [[cut]] [[end of interview]]