00:00:11.000 - 00:02:12.000

Camera Crew Member #1:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #2:: _Black Champions_, roll twenty-eight, take one. Interviewer:: Mr. Gates, let's talk a little bit about growing up in Harlem in the 1930s, 1920s and 1930s. William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, growing up in Harlem was a wonderful thing. I was born in Alabama, 19-, August 30th, 1917. Migrated from there to Cleveland, Ohio, at about the age of two years old. Cleveland to New York City Harlem. Got here when I was about four. Lived on 132nd Street between 7th and Lenox Avenue. And I've been to Harlem at that particular time most of my life right up to this present time. [[missing camera roll]] Interviewer:: When you were a kid growing up on 137th Street [sic] , were you very athletic, very competitive? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, yes, all the kids those days were competitive. We all came out of Harlem YMCA. We played basketball, we swam, we played baseball, we run track. Most of the kids that time had something they liked to do: baseball, basketball, swimming, track. [[sic]] Interviewer:: And you went to Benjamin Franklin which, of course, was beginning by 1934, I think you said- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, yes, Benjamin Franklin started probably in 1934 or '35, and I proudly went there at that particular time and graduated from there in 1937-38 year. Interviewer:: You were basketball, New York City basketball champions several years. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, that year we won the city championship in 1937, Benjamin Franklin. We were playing up 168th Street ball where we beat out a team, a very good team. Duke, Newtown High School, coached by Johnny Nucatola. On that team they had Jerry Carroll [sic] , and Bobby-Jerry Rizzo, Bobby Carroll, Freddie [unintelligible] , we had Red Phillips, Ollie Edinboro, [unintelligible] , and others. [[sic]]

00:02:13.000 - 00:04:46.000

Interviewer:: Now you had a, a coach at Benjamin Franklin, I think, you said was a good teacher. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, Benjamin Franklin was a beautiful coach, he was a very good instigator, learned you how to play the basketball game, and he taught basic fundamentals how to move, how to operate, how to get around the floor, then also how to use your brain to the best ability of your own particular body. Interviewer:: What was, what was the coach's name? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, Bill, William 'Bill' Spiegel. He was one of the best coaches in New York City at that particular time. Camera Crew Member #1:: Have him say that again. Interviewer:: Yeah, would you say that over again. William 'Pop' Gates:: William 'Bill' Spiegel. Interviewer:: No, would you say the whole sentence. Bill- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. Interviewer:: William 'Bill' Spiegel, my coach at- William 'Pop' Gates:: Bill Spiegel was our coach at Benjamin Franklin from 19-, that particular time from 1934 to 1937, where he continued to be coach up until about six or ten years ago when he retired. Interviewer:: You had to make a decision after high school about whether you wanted to, I think, go to college or to play- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, the decision was this here: while we were in high school, this particular time, they were not taking many Negro boys as they are now in the various colleges throughout the metropolitan area, now, also, throughout the country. So, several of us, we had an idea formulating in our head, because many of us had played at Madison Squa-, Madison Square Garden at that particular time. So, we wanted to form together team to come back to the Garden to play, so fellows like Dolly King, Billy Giles, [unintelligible] Glover, Sonny Younger [sic] , Red Phillips, [unintelligible] . Many of us, we decided to go, wanted to go, decided to go to a Negro college, and we decided it would be Clark University, Atlanta, Georgia, because we wanted to go there and form a good team, which Clark already had a good team at that particular time. We wanted to form a team that probably could be better, come back and participate in the Garden and try to beat those teams that we were not accepted to play at that particular time. [[sic]] Interviewer:: And so, you went off in the fall, I guess, of 19- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I went off to Clark University, Atlanta, Georgia, very good school, had a lot of fun, but somehow or another the other fellows did not show. And I got a little fed up with the situation because they didn't show, and I decided to come back to New York City. I stayed there about six months. Also played, went down there to make the basketball team, I also played football there.

00:04:47.000 - 00:07:26.000

Interviewer:: So, you came back to New York City in about six months after- William 'Pop' Gates:: I came back to New York City, yes, right. And then that particular time, the New York Renaissance, one of the great Negro aggregations of basketball-Negro, great, white or black-at that particular time, was having their tryouts. So, I was offered an opportunity to tryout with the New York Renaissance at the particular time. Being offered this opportunity was a great exhilaration to me, and so by trying out, and I was fortunate enough to have, to make that particular team. Interviewer:: So, in the fall then, I guess, of- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, that particularly, I just left high school where we were city championship champions and had a great opportunity to play with some great Negro basketball players, such as Puggy Bell, John Isaacs, Zack Clayton, Fat Jenkins [sic] , Eyre Saitch, Willie Smith, Tarzan Cooper, and myself. We played, they had a tournament in Chicago that particular time, all of the better professional basketball teams throughout the country participated this tournament to decide who would then be world partic-, world professional championships champions that particular year. So, going through the entire tournament, we won all the ball games we had to win, and we won one of the world's professional basketball champions-, championships in 1938-39. [[sic]] Interviewer:: Could you tell me a little about, about the finals of that tournament? Do you remember much about- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, the finals, I think we had to beat a team, the Fort Wayne Zollners [sic] , which was why to be in the National Basketball League or Association, I believe. I'm not, I'm not too certain about it, but I believe we had to beat them, which was a great basketball aggregation. I believe we had to beat them out to win the partic-, that particular championship that year. [[sic]] Interviewer:: What about your team? What about the Renaissance was so formidable? I mean, you beat a lot of very fine ballplayers. What kind of an edge- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, during that partic-, Interviewer:: -did you have? William 'Pop' Gates:: How many? Interviewer:: What kind of an edge did you have? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, we didn't have no particular edge except that we were very good ballplayers. In order to be with the Renaissance, now you must realize, you had a whole lot of great ballplayers playing that particular time that did not have the great opportunity to play as they are now with all of these teams that are playing now. So, you had to get the cream of the crop to play with the Renaissance. So, we carried eight men, so in order to be with the that team, you had to be the best at that particular time. So, the edge we had, that was that we were a little better than other ballplayers at that particular time.

00:07:27.000 - 00:09:59.000

Interviewer:: What kind of cities did you play in? Do you remember any particular places- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, well, now, we played, the Renaissance played most surely all the Eastern areas, far from this area back up to the Midwest, far as Minnesota, Wisconsin, all like that. We played every major city, every small city, small town, small county in the whole particular area there. All the major cities we played was Indianapolis, the Butler Fieldhouse; Detroit, at the Olympic stadium they had there, where the other boy don't want to go there and play there no more, boy from Detroit; Cleveland, Ohio; Buffalo; Toledo; Columbus. We played all the major auditoriums, and Chicago, all over that particular area. Interviewer:: Who came to see you? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, well we had a, a crowd that come to see us. A mixed crowd, both black and white came, and it was about, 'bout even, and just as many blacks came to see us as whites came to see us, because this particular time, Negroes in basketball are probably-and in other sports, now, this is 1938-they had nothing to re-, to revere about and to talk about, so they were so happy to see a team come in and to show them and participate so well and to beat out the other teams that we were playing against. Interviewer:: Now, in this period, of course, you didn't have seven-foot, seven-foot-four people. I mean, most of the players, I think, were relatively closer to the same size. Did that dictate a different style of ball that you have to be more all-around players- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, the Renaissance was doing it for their speed, and their ability to handle a ball, and to pass the ball. Dribbling was a no-no. You only dribbled when you go toward that basket to score. And for the ability around there, well, our smallest man was Fats Jenkins. He was about five-foot-seven, and our tallest man was big Willie Smith out of Cleveland, Ohio. He was six-six. And our main center at that particular time was Tarz-, Charlie 'Tarzan' Cooper, which he now is in the Springfield Hall of Fame. And all of these guys were excellent ballplayers. Interviewer:: Did, you, you emphasized that you didn't dribble the ball a whole lot. Of course [unintelligible] - William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, actually, every game of basketball, as the same game they're playing now hasn't changed all that much. Only thing the men have gotten a little bit bigger. I won't say they're any faster. Certainly won't say they're any smarter. But see, the ball travels faster than you can run and dribble with the ball. So why waste your time running and dribbling the ball, when you can throw the ball? That made it much faster that he can get it.

00:10:00.000 - 00:11:13.000

Interviewer:: So the big emphasis in your style of play was pass. William 'Pop' Gates:: Moving the ball. Interviewer:: Did you have a set group of plays, somebody designed some plays so [unintelligible] - William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, we had, we had a set rotate. We operate of what they call at that particular time, it was a figure eight. We had men in a pillar, man come 'round the corner, what they call now the, the, the pick play. Well, that's the fan play-man come 'round the corner, pick his man, and you fan out to either side which your man have to go up to. All those things we utilized are same thing they're doing now. Interviewer:: Mm-hmm. Now, you didn't play with the twenty-four second clock, so- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, no, no, no. At that particular time, possession was a main fort of the game. As long as you have the ball, the other team cannot score. So we sometimes-matter of fact, I think the Renaissance has a record at that particular time for holding the ball, maybe, I just, maybe over eight or ten minutes before they lost possession of the ball again. But that was how they played then. We had the two-hand shot, and we had the men playing out to pivot as they do now. Now, they have the one-hand shot. Interviewer:: Do you watch the game now? Do you see games? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes. I, I watch it, I enjoy it. Interviewer:: Oh, we'll cut. William 'Pop' Gates:: OK. [[cut]]

00:11:14.000 - 00:15:28.000

Camera Crew Member #2:: Roll twenty-nine. Take two. Camera Crew Member #1:: Give him a chance to get out [unintelligible] first. Interviewer:: When I ask, ask a question, can you just take a moment before you start to answer. Just take a pause, about a beat- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, OK. Interviewer:: -and then, and then begin your answer. You, you, you were playing with the Renaissance through 1943, I believe, and then you played with the Washington Bears. What, why did you make that, that change? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, at this particular-oh, I think the reason for that was because-matter of fact, I know what it was. They offered us more money. And so, when most of the fellows transferred from the Renaissance to the Washington Bears, which actually, the Renaissance and the Washington Bear [sic] were the same team only in different uniforms. [[camera roll 29]] [[slate]] [[sic]] Interviewer:: Who owned the Washington Bears? William 'Pop' Gates:: Washington Bears was owned by the fellow-a white fellow-that owned the Lichtman theaters in Washington, D.C. It was managed by Harold Jackson, which is now the commentator of a music and all like that, and a fellow by the name of Ewell Conway. They were the operators of the team. It was owned by the fellow owned Lichtman theaters in Washington, D.C. Interviewer:: At this time, was there an awareness among basketball players that a prof-, an organized professional league was, was gonna be, was gonna be coming into being? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, see, before that happened, they always had had what they may have called organized basketball. The New York City area during that particular time, they had the American Basketball League. That was organized. They had ten teams playing on the East Coast. Also during that time, they had the National Basketball League, which operated mostly out of the Midwest. So there was always a professional team organized league somewhere. But now, I think in the '46, they started with the BAA, the Basketball Association of America. Then they came the NBA or the ABA or what it was, there's, too, too many changes to remember. Well, there was an awareness of, at that particular time. But by this time now, they start taking Negroes into organized basketball, and this in somewhat kind of way started the, the, the, the banish of the Renaissance ball club because ballplayers going to other teams and other leagues. Interviewer:: When you think about this period, players you played with and the players you played against, the really outstanding people, can you tell us something about that? About the- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, we had quite a lot of tremendous ballplayers over that time. Actually, now, you had two teams playing that consist of Negro ballplayers. There was the New York Renaissance and the Harlem Globetrotters. Now, these two, two teams, and any member playing on that team, had to constitute the best they had at that particular time. And, actually, the Renaissance, I already mentioned those names; I can repeat it again if you want me to. But there was Tarzan Cooper. He was president of the hall of fame, Charles 'Tarzan' Cooper out of Philadelphia; there's Wee Willie Smith out of Cleveland, Ohio, he's still around; there was Fat Jenkins, played baseball and basketball; there was Eyre Saitch, the tennis champion, also hell of a basketball player; there was John Isaacs, which, you know, and he's still around; Clarence 'Puggy' Bell, one of my better friends, and he's still here; Zach Clayton, that's referee of the fights right now you see on television; and myself. And with the Harlem Globetrotters, they had a tremendous ball club, too. And they had one guy by the name of Sonny Boswell. He could fire that ball. He was out of Toledo, Ohio. They had another good ballplayer, Bernie Price, out of Toledo, but he now presides in, resides in, presides in Chicago, Illinois. Duke Cumberland, tech strong baseball and basketball player. Babe Pressley, good ball player. Hillary Brown. All of these ballplayers were tremendous ballplayers of their time.

00:15:29.000 - 00:18:38.000

Interviewer:: Did the Renaissance and the Globetrotters play? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, we met, to my knowledge- Interviewer:: Would you start that answer again please? William 'Pop' Gates:: Yes, to my knowledge, we met twice. And we split ballgames. We- Interviewer:: I'm sorry, just let me interrupt you again. Could you start and say, "The Renaissance and the Harlem Globetrotters- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. Interviewer:: -met . . ." William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. Oh, yes. The Renaissance and the Harlem Globetrotters met twice. We met first in Chicago in the championship tournament, and we beat them in Chicago Stadium. We won the championship that year, and in 1941, we met again, and the Globetrotters beat us in the Chicago Stadium. Interviewer:: Let's go back. I, I meant to ask you this much earlier, and we should get this in. Tell us how you got your nickname, 'Pop'? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, I, I could think back all of those years; it's been a few years between then and now. Well, I came up as a kid, I used to play stickball, a very good stickball player, and I played with the older fellows on the team. So consequently, the kids my age at the time thought I was as old as the fellows I was playing with, so when I got back to playing with them, they would always call me 'Pop' thinking I was older. Interviewer:: [laughs] OK. You look at the modern game. You're, you're- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh yes. Interviewer:: Give us some of your observations. William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I think the game now is still very exciting. You have tremendous ballplayers there that are very good, they have great natural abilities, and they could play almost anywhere with joy. But I also believe that some case there's a lack of fundamentals that's being-not being shown by some of the ballplayers. See, if a ballplayer is a good ballplayer, he will be able to participate at any time on the floor. Good ballplayer never sits down; he plays most generally all the time. They talk about the small four, the power four, the small guard, the big guard-if you're a good ballplayer, you'll be a good defensive ballplayer, you're a good offensive ballplayer, you're a good team man, you set up plays, you know how to visualize plays, know how to operate plays, you know how to rebound, you know how to block your man out. In some cases where these kids are tremendously good, many of 'em lack the basic fundamentals of the game. Interviewer:: When you came along there was a popular expression in basketball, people talked about the ability to "read the floor," which some coaches feel is not as much in evidence that-can you talk about that? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, when I came up as a high school player, and it followed me through all of my professional career, I was always told to be aware of where everybody is at on the floor. With your peripheral vision, if you watch the ballgame, you should be able to see the other nine men that are participating in that game. You should never lose sight of that.

00:18:39.000 - 00:21:58.000

Interviewer:: Did you, did you develop that skill in, in high school, do you think? William 'Pop' Gates:: I was very fortunately-fortunate-in that respect. My coach at that particular time-and I had another coach who was very good, that was Al [unintelligible] -and both of these fellows, matter of fact, my coach at Benjamin Franklin, Bill Spiegel, coached [unintelligible] , and they, I came under the same philosophy. And I developed the skill there and it carried me all the rest of my remaining sixteen years, or seventeen years professionally. Interviewer:: You, subsequent to your playing career, coached the Harlem Globetrotters. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, I went to the Harlem Globetrotters in the year 1950. I played there with the team for two years as, as a player. Then I became the player-coach of the Harlem Globetrotters. First team I coached before I coached the Harlem Globetrotters was a team called the Kansas City Stars-Kansas City [sic] Monarchs rather. And we had a squad of twelve men. We played all over the country, also. We participated against other teams, not with the traveling team, and we went through that whole season without losing a ballgame. That was about 140 ballgames. And then I played and coached for the Harlem Globetrotters from 1953, '54, and '55. [[sic]] Interviewer:: What kind of team wan-, what, what kind of team was this? You know, many people see the Harlem Globetrotters and they see, think, just sort of the show. You were with them when they were- William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, primarily, in the early, beginning of the Globetrotters, they was just as good of a ball club as any other team they had out on that particular field. Interviewer:: Could you start that sentence- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. [missing frames] Primarily, at the beginning of the Globetrotters, they were just as good a ball club as any other team that was participating that particular time. They weren't playing a team that were laying down to them, they were playing teams that was trying to beat them, so they had to be able to play. [missing frames] They subsequently, the game got so big far as they are concerned, far as Saperstein was concerned, they decided it would be best to keep their record intact and enhance the, the beauty of the Globetrotters, that they would carry their own team with them, and they would play and go along with the show and participate in it, but they could not win if they wanted to win. [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]] Interviewer:: And you have, you were a champion in high school. William 'Pop' Gates:: Yes. Interviewer:: You were a world professional champion, you're often called the finest basketball player of your era, did that change you in any way? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, not really. I think everybody, I think basically this way: if a player participates in anything, anything you do, there's a certain amount of ego in all people have. I think when a player line-, ties up his sneakers to go on the floor to play, floor to play, pay, he has a certain amount of ego. He want the people out there to pay their money to watch him, want them to see how good he is. He wants his other teammates to see how good he is, so therefore he puts his all into the game because he has a certain amount of pride in himself that he wants to do his best that he can.

00:21:59.000 - 00:24:03.000

Interviewer:: Did you, did you find that quality- Interviewer:: -from a lot of the players- Camera Crew Member #1:: Did you find that quality is the question. Interviewer:: OK. [[rollout on camera roll]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark it. Camera Crew Member #2:: Speed. Roll thirty, take three. Interviewer:: Mr. Gates, you grew up in Harlem during the 1920s and the 1930s. I wonder if you'd reminisce about that a little bit. William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, it goes back so far, not that I'm that old. I came to New York City from Alabama. I was born in Alabama, August 3rd, 1917, migrated to Cleveland, Ohio. I think I hit New York City probably year of 1921. Lived in Harlem most of my life, and I lived first on 132nd Street between 7th and Lenox Avenue. In this particular area, I've been in most of my life. [[camera roll 30]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: When you were growing up 132nd Street, were you very athletic? Very competitive? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes. Most of the kids at that particular time were very athletic. We participated in games like stickball. Games which they played at that particular time, which is very hard to play because so many cars. Boxball, triangleball. Then we also participated in Harlem YMC [sic] , Harlem playground, basketball, baseball, and track, swimming, so all, most all of the sports. [[sic]] Interviewer:: When do you recall becoming particularly interested in playing basketball? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, actually, I started when I was a youngster at the Harlem YMC and I, which I am still presently a member of. And that's where I first started, actually. That had to be around 1928 or something like that. And, mat-, matter of fact, I played on all the high-, the YMCA teams. They had the Y Midgets, the Y Cubs, the Y Intermediates, the Y Juniors, and then the Y Seniors.

00:24:04.000 - 00:26:47.000

Interviewer:: Do you remember why you picked Benjamin Franklin to go to high school? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, at that particular time, we had a lot of ballplayers-kids from that particular area that was older than me-and they were telling me about a coach that was leaving DeWitt Clinton High School at the time, that he was going to Benjamin Franklin High. Well, it was just open in 1933 or 1934. So, they advised me that it would be good if you go there, because this fellow knows what the game is all about. He would be an asset to you and your learning this particular ballgame. Interviewer:: So you went to Ben Franklin? William 'Pop' Gates:: And I went to Benjamin Franklin High School where . . . and I went for the next three years. We won the New York City PS, Public School Athletic League Championship game at the 168th Street armory. We, we beat out a very good team, which was Newtown High School coached by Johnny Nucatola. On that particular team, they had Jerry Rizzo, Johnny Carroll [sic] , Bob Fitzgerald, and several others. I can't remember everybody. On our particular team, we had Charlie Weltic [sic] , Junior Reese [sic] , Red Phillips, Pete Marinara, Ollie Edinboro, and several others. [[sic]] [[sic]] [[sic]] Interviewer:: What did you learn? What did this coach teach you? What was his name? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, basically, William-his first name, Bill Spiegel, was basically an all-around basketball innovator. He taught you the basic fundamentals of the game, what it's all about, and how it should be played. There was no fundamental that he taught us that is not on the books today. He taught you defense, taught you how to pass, taught you how to visualize plays, taught you how to anticipate what's going on, taught you how to block a man off the backboard and stop him from getting possession of the ball, and taught you how to be a good team player, how to develop your own sense of reality of the game that you're playing. Interviewer:: Do you remember how you felt when you won that first championship? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, naturally, matter of fact, relatively speaking to the scores today, we won the city championship up there at that particular armory 28 to 26. I think the high score on the team may have been eight points. But winning the city championship was like, like . . . I can't express it at this particular time because I can't remember how I actually felt. But it was a great feeling.

00:26:48.000 - 00:30:14.000

Interviewer:: Now, when you finished high school, you played on a championship team. Obviously, you were one of the finer players around, what was- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, yes, well during this particular time, we saw that most of the Negro ballplayers in the New York area were not offered scholarships to go to the various colleges-this particular area or anywhere else at this particular time. So, consequently, many of us at this particular time decided that we would get together and formulate an all-Negro team of, consists of Negro ballplayers, the better ballplayers throughout the New York area, to go to Atlanta, Georgia, and participate there at Clark University, college in Atlanta, because we had already had some of our boys down there playing basketball set a good bar. So, we decided to do that. However, things didn't materialize as we wanted to do, and so I wound up going down there with several others, but everybody did not show. So, consequently, behind all of this, maybe six, seven months later, I decided that, well, I've had enough of going back to the South. So, I had an opportunity to play professional basketball with the New York Renaissance. I was notified of this fact, so I came back to New York City and was offered an opportunity to tryout with the New York Renaissance. Interviewer:: How did you feel about trying out? Were you, were you nervous? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, it was a tremendous feeling, because when I walked out on the floor as a young kid at that particular time, and I saw all these fellows that I had watched play basketball when I was a kid, I was completely struck in awe to be able to even step on the floor with guys like Tarzan Cooper, Willie Smith, Eyre Saitch, Jackie Bethards, Zach Clayton, Puggy Bell, John Isaacs. It was a complete feeling to even look at the fellows that I had looked at before, to step on the floor and receive, hello, kid, how are you? It was a great feeling. Interviewer:: When did, how did they tell you you'd made the team? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, you know, funny thing about . . . a person participates and if you know that you did what you supposed to do, and you-especially when you, if you cut the mustard all the way, you don't have to tell you, 'cause you know your ability'll take you there. I knew that I had made the team by just going to hear it officially from the owner Bob Douglas and Eric Illidge. Interviewer:: And did they take you aside- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, oh, yes. They took me aside and they gave me a, told me, well, now you play with this team. We have a great amount of respect that we have gathered throughout the years of playing, because they started 1922, now this is [missing frames] 193-, '38. And they said, we travel throughout the country. We admired and respected by all blacks, all whites, and we want you to carry yourself as a gentleman at all times. So, they offered me a contract, a big contract. My salary when we started it was $125 a month [missing frames] and three dollars a day eating money. That's the relationship to what today what these guys get in one day, we had to work a whole month to get. [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]]

00:30:15.000 - 00:34:26.000

Interviewer:: What was the traveling like? You s-, young kid, you- William 'Pop' Gates:: When I was a kid, well, Bob Douglas at that particular time had a bus, a modern bus at that time called The Blue Goose. Very comfortable seats. And I had never been outside of New York City, other than the fact I came from Alabama to Cleveland to New York. And I was seeing places and going to places I had heard about, I had read about. The major cities like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus, Ohio, and so many other particular places you can-Philadelphia; Newark, New Jersey. And I was very well thrilled. Throughout the time, hey, I was getting paid to play a game I loved to play-all of us did-to travel throughout the country as we did at that particular time with the New York Renaissance. We traveled all over, from here to Wisconsin, Minnesota, and all the East and the West, all the East, East Coast areas. Interviewer:: Could you reminisce a bit about the schedule when you played? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, well, we had a very easy schedule, I would say. We started off at say around about a week before Thanksgiving-just about this time now-and we participated, we, we'll play around there until we got our team straightened out, then we open up at the Renaissance Casino Thanksgiving Day, then we would hit the road from that particular [missing frames] time up until Christmas time. Then we would be on the road all that time, we'd come back to play Christmas. This was yearly. This was something that we did because the people of Harlem wanted to see us. Then after Christmas, we hit the road again and won't get back here again until maybe three-and-a-half or four months later. During that particular time, we had probably played up to 150 ballgames, playing every day in the week. Eating out of the grocery store, basically eating out of the bus-had to go into the grocery store to buy your food, because certain areas [missing frames] [unintelligible] even this area here of Jersey and places like that where you were not allowed to eat in restaurants. The Midwest and certain parts of [missing frames] Ohio, Indiana, Illinois-the Southern parts, you could not eat there. Yet, we were allowed to play there. We traveled anywhere from three hundred to four hundred miles per day getting to the ballgame [missing frames] . In order to find a place to sleep, we had probably travel another hundred miles or so to find somewhere to sleep at. [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]] [[missing frames]] Interviewer:: What do you remember about the fans? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, the fans, particularly, everybody came out to see the Renaissance play, because it was a great team, it was a good team, and they admired the way that- William 'Pop' Gates:: -the team played ball. We were noted for passing the ball- William 'Pop' Gates:: Very admired. [[rollout on camera roll]] [[wild sound]] [[production discussion]] [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #1:: Roll. Camera Crew Member #2:: Roll thirty-one, take four. Interviewer:: So, we're going to go back again. You were young, kid out of New York, you were traveling around the country with the Renaissance basketball team. What do you remember about the fans? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I know this about the fans: I had heard about the fans from the ballplayers that had traveled prior to being on the same team I was playing with. The fans wanted to see us play. They wanted to see us win. So, it was our feeling as we went further on to different areas where the fans came out to see us, we had something that we wanted to prove to them-not to them that we were good, because there was something they wanted to see us do, 'cause they loved, admired, and respected the New York Renaissance ball club. It was something that, then, at those particular times, where many Negroes did not have much of an opportunity to, to revel at anybody else too much. So, the Renaissance, or a team like the Globetrotters, they loved to see and wanted to see us play. And we made sure that when we stepped on that floor to play at that particular time, that we would do our best to win for them. [[camera roll 31]] [[slate]]

00:34:27.000 - 00:38:07.000

Interviewer:: Now, you were very young at this time. Did you get homesick on the road? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, well, I was not really ever homesick because I was in awe to be able to travel throughout the country, to visit these major cities, and meet the many friends and relationships that I still have now throughout. And from time-to-time, people come to New York City; I may travel somewhere and we can say hello again. I don't think I was ever really too much homesick about traveling, because something I like to do. Interviewer:: Did you feel that the, the game was changing a lot during this period because so many teams were traveling- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, oh, yes. A matter of fact, during those particular years of 1930, when I started, when several of us started, we saw the game change from the-they stopped the center jump, they stopped the ball from taking out, we saw the lane get longer, we saw the lane get wider, we saw the basketball change from big round thing to what they are presently playing now. The game has changed to, to that degree, but it's changed for the better. Interviewer:: Do you feel that the modern players perhaps don't stress work on fundamentals as much as you did? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I can't say that because I'm not there. I'm not there what the coaches see or what they're doing. But I can see certain instances that many of the players lack the basic fundamentals of the game. However good they may be now, they could be that much more better if they lac-, if they had the basic fundamentals of the game. But I say this about a good basketball player's got his own natural ability, he has his own natural ego about what he wants to do and how he can do it. He will learn these things, generally, on his own. You can't, a good ballplayer-you look up and down them and you see twelve ballplayers playing-a good ballplayer very rarely sits down. He's playing constantly all game. You see other ballplayers lack the ability or lack the basics. They're filling in. Some of those birds, they don't play a, a whole ballgame but a whole season. They're watching. Or you could be call that a learning process, but we always thought a learning process you learned your basic fundamentals first, execute your fundamentals on the floor-that's the complete, thorough learning process. Interviewer:: A lot of people feel that New York has perhaps the most knowledgeable-and to some degree-appreciative basketball fans. William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I, I would believe so. There was two areas of basketball when I first started, which now is kind of spread out throughout. But the original area of basketball was two areas in New York City in the eastern area and the area around Indiana-Indianap-, Indianapolis, Indiana, that particular area. And, now, I think everybody have, have a general- [coughs] excuse me-a general idea of basketball. But now, there's certain mistakes made of people only know now what they see. If a mistake is being made, they never saw the correct thing before, they'll only see what they see now. So, you don't recognize where there's a mistake, where a seasoned, a regular watcher that knows the game can see the mistakes and he said, this guy flubbin' dubbin', instead of making a proper play, he didn't do what he's supposed to, cost the team four points-two points offensively, two points defensively, plus a foul. They've given away five points to a team.

00:38:08.000 - 00:41:06.000

Interviewer:: When, when New York and the Indiana area-Indianapolis area-were the centers of basketball, was there a distinct difference between the way the game was played in those two parts? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, New York was ran. The people around the Indiana area ran. Think the shoot, New Yorkers would shoot. They played a team defense. I'm not putting too much on owners specifically on that particular area, but these were the hot beds at that particular time of basketball. You take a coach, I played against him. He's a hall of famer, he played with the Indianapolis Cowskis [sic] , the coach-Johnny Wooden. I played against him when I first started playing professional basketball. He took the same concept of basketball with him to UCLA; wherever he went, it had winners. So, his concept is follow him. Like the other ballplayers that played in that, their concept follows them wherever they go. That type of modern, fast, good ball-handling, less dribbling, good defense, know how to block your man out, know how to set up plays and things like that. [[sic]] Interviewer:: When you look at the game today, when you see modern basketball, what, what are you impressed by? What are the things that you- William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, I'm impressed by the great leaptability [sic] of these kids, the great adept-, adeptability [sic] of being able to put that ball in the hoop and know where that basket is. They can shoot, they can run, they can jump, they can fly. All of 'em can't, but the good ones do. These are the consistent ballplayers that will be there. You see, a ballplayer, average ballplayer, plays-a good ballplayer-he'll play a good, maybe, ten years or longer, because he's been consistent. He's a good defensive ballplayer, he's a good passer, good offensive ballplayer, a good team man. He don't have to score all of the points all of the time, but he fits in a mold of that coach's desire and the team's will. [[sic]] [[sic]] Interviewer:: Mr. Gates, I'm going to mention some players to you. Some of them are people you played with, some perhaps people you played against. But I'd just like you to reminisce about them. Just tell me what you remember about Dolly King. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, Dolly King was one of the first, if not the first, Negro All-American. He was one of the first that came out of Long Island University. He was trem-, tremendous ballplayer, he was a good rebounder, he moved pretty fast for a big man, and he was a very good pillar player. Interviewer:: You played with a man who was, today, a rather prominent figure: Zach Clayton. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, Zach Clayton, the Philadelphia referee of the fights. You see him on television. Zach was a very good, steady, consistent ballplayer. Very good defensively, good two-hand shooter. Every now and then, he could make a basket on a lay-up. [laughs]

00:41:07.000 - 00:43:36.000

Interviewer:: You knew Nat 'Sweetwater' Clifton. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh, Sweetwater. Yes, I knew Sweetwater Clifton way back from in the early Forties. We played against each other several times, we played with each other several times. He was tremendous ballplayer. Interviewer:: Do you think there are too many professional teams now? William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, they're certainly bad for prof-, professional ball. I think they're spreading themselves too thin. You can see it evident in this particular league right now. Some of these teams can't win a ball game, because you're spreading the ballplayers too thin, and those ballplayers can't cut the mustard that well. So instead of having fifteen or twenty or teams they have now, maybe they should cut that down and have less teams but have better ball club. Because some of these games you watch, you don't even want to see, because one team completely domineers the other team. Interviewer:: Yeah, I think we're gonna, I think we should stop because we're gonna- Camera Crew Member #1:: Cut. [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #2:: Roll thirty-one, take five. Interviewer:: Mr. Gates, you had played on Ben Franklin's city championship- William 'Pop' Gates:: Correct. Interviewer:: You subsequently became a professional champion. Talk about being a champion. William 'Pop' Gates:: Well, I was very fortunate to come out of high school-be on the city championship in high school and subsequently the next year played on a world professional championship team, the 1938-39 Renaissance team, which were the first recognized world professional championship champions at that particular time. And subsequently, let me say this here, a lot of ballplayers participated in the league quite some time, like Wilt Chamberlain. He's never been on a professional championship team. But myself and others that played with me had a great opportunity to play on two. The next team was the Washington Bears in 1943. We again then won the championship in Chicago Stadium, world's professional championship of basketball. That was then, was recognized then, as professional basketball played at its time. [[slate]] Interviewer:: Can you, would you finish the sentence, if somebody said to you, "To be a champion . . .," what would you say? William 'Pop' Gates:: To be a champion, I have a little metal clip that I have now, I wore, I will have that thing molded and put in a regular be a champion is being like something else. Very few people get an opportunity to be a champion so be amongst champions. It's a great feeling.

00:43:37.000 - 00:44:16.000

Interviewer:: Could you do that once more? William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. Interviewer:: To be a champion . . . William 'Pop' Gates:: [laughs] [leans forward] I lost the point there. Camera Crew Member #1:: Sit down. Sit down. William 'Pop' Gates:: Oh. Camera Crew Member #1:: [unintelligible] away. William 'Pop' Gates:: To be a champion is being able to play with other champions. People that has played the game, want to play the ball game, have great respect in their own ability to come out a winner. Champions are not losers, they are winners. I think every ballplayer playing today should adhere- William 'Pop' Gates:: -in his own mind that he wants to strive to do his best. If you can't do your best, don't do your worst. Camera Crew Member #1:: OK, you can cut out of- Interviewer:: I think we're good. Camera Crew Member #3:: [unintelligible] Camera Crew Member #1:: OK. Cut. [[leans forward]] [[rollout on camera roll]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] [[end of interview]]