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CAMERA CREW MEMBER:: YOUR NAME AND—YOUR NAME PLEASE. Normareen Shaw:: My—Normareen Shaw. CAMERA CREW MEMBER:: SPEED. INTERVIEWER:: THE NIGHT THAT THE—JIMMY LEE JACKSON WAS SHOT YOU HAD—YOU WERE THE OWNER OF, OF THE MACK’S CAFÉ RIGHT? Normareen Shaw:: Yes. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT WAS THE, WHAT WAS THE ATMOSPHERE IN THE TOWN AT THAT TIME? Normareen Shaw:: I’d say rather exciting. The—this march was being planned for that particular night. INTERVIEWER:: WHY WAS THE MARCH—WAS THERE SOME SPECIAL REASON FOR THE MARCH THAT NIGHT? Normareen Shaw:: Voter registration. INTERVIEWER:: NICE. DID IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT JIM ORANGE FROM THE SCLC WAS IN JAIL OR NOT? AS FAR AS YOU KNEW. Normareen Shaw:: As far as I know, I, I can’t say, really. INTERVIEWER:: WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE PEOPLE, THAT THE BLACKS IN THE TOWN WERE AFRAID OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN AT A DEMONSTRATION LIKE THIS? WERE YOU AFRAID? Normareen Shaw:: They didn’t seem to be. No I was not afraid. INTERVIEWER:: EVEN THOUGH YOU KNEW THAT THE ALABAMA STATE POLICE HAD MOVED IN AND—THAT YOU WEREN’T AFRAID? YOU, YOU DIDN’T ANTICIPATE THIS KIND OF VIOLENCE? Normareen Shaw:: No I did not. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT HAPPENED, THEN, WHEN THE CHURCH SERVICE ENDED AND THEN WHAT? SOMETHING PEOPLE CAME INTO YOU CAFÉ—JUST TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED. Normareen Shaw:: OK. The service ended and the march began. And the two people leading the march come down the steps to the sidewalk and they kneel to pray. INTERVIEWER:: WHO WERE THE PEOPLE LEADING IT? Normareen Shaw:: A Reverend Dobynes and—was black. INTERVIEWER:: RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: And George Baker, a young man. A young white man. INTERVIEWER:: I SEE. OK. Normareen Shaw:: And they kneel to pray— INTERVIEWER:: NOW WHERE WAS THIS? OUTSIDE OF THE ZION CHURCH? Normareen Shaw:: The Zion Methodist Church, right. I was standing in the doorway— INTERVIEWER:: OF YOUR CAFÉ? Normareen Shaw:: Of the church. INTERVIEWER:: OH RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: I was standing in the doorway of the church and I had to wait for them to come out. I look down and they were beating both of the men. INTERVIEWER:: THE STATE POLICE WERE? Normareen Shaw:: Right. Well, at that time, it said state troopers. I don’t know what they were or who they were. But they were in uniform. And there was a big light on the porch of the City Hall which is across the street. INTERVIEWER:: RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: And all of a sudden that light went out. [pause] I went down the steps and a man looked at me and said, you are the girl who run the café. Get down there and open that door. INTERVIEWER:: A BLACK MAN SAID THIS TO YOU? Normareen Shaw:: No, he was white. In uniform. I don’t know who they were. INTERVIEWER:: BUT WHAT WAS THE REASON TO SAY THIS? Normareen Shaw:: I’d like to know that myself. I don’t know. INTERVIEWER:: I SEE. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU OPENED UP THE CAFÉ? DID JIMMY LEE JACKSON COME IN, DO YOU REMEMBER? Normareen Shaw:: When I got to the porch of the café I stopped. The troopers were still behind me. There were several behind me and on the porch and there was one man dressed in plain clothes standing at the front door of the restaurant. And he looked at me and said, you are the girl who run this place. Open that door and let them go in. And with billy clubs and guns. I had no choice, but to open the door. INTERVIEWER:: NOW WHEN THE PEOPLE WENT IN DID JIMMY LEE JACKSON GO IN TOO? Normareen Shaw:: I saw him come in later. He was in the crowd—it was, it was a large crowd. [[pause]] INTERVIEWER:: RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: Right. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT SORT OF A PERSON WAS HE BY THE WAY? Normareen Shaw:: He was a very quiet person. Intelligent person. Worked hard. Very concerned about his mother and his sister and his grandfather. INTERVIEWER:: ALL RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: He, he was definitely a family type. INTERVIEWER:: HIS GRANDFATHER HAD BEEN A SLAVE? CAGER LEE? IS THAT RIGHT? Normareen Shaw:: Right. As I understand it. INTERVIEWER:: NOW WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO JIMMY LEE JACKSON BEING SHOT? Normareen Shaw:: [pause] It was a big hassle in the café. Crowded, very crowded. People and troopers. INTERVIEWER:: OK. Normareen Shaw:: During the time they were using the billy clubs. Hitting people over the head— INTERVIEWER:: INSIDE THE CAFÉ? Normareen Shaw:: —the shoulders. Inside the café. And I happened to turn around and look back, because I had gone back into the kitchen area, then. Jimmy was heading toward the counter. INTERVIEWER:: RIGHT. Normareen Shaw:: That’s the last time I saw him. But, after that, we were trying to get out of the backdoor and his sister was behind me and there was a noise. And she said, oh they’re shooting. I said, no they’re not. I said, those drink cases fell because—they fell behind me, cut my legs, I thought—the drinks popped. Well, I thought that’s what it was and I still, you know, do not know today if that was a shot or just what. INTERVIEWER:: BUT THEN DID YOU SEE JIMMY LEE SHOT? Normareen Shaw:: I didn’t see him after that, but I saw him just before that. INTERVIEWER:: ALL RIGHT. IT’S GOOD. WERE THE POLICE BEATING HIS MOTHER, DO YOU KNOW? Normareen Shaw:: That I did not see. [[pause]] INTERVIEWER:: I SEE. WHAT, WHAT WAS THE REACTION, YOU KNOW, AFTER YOU SAW ALL OF THIS VIOLENCE BY THE POLICE YOU, SAID YOU WEREN’T AFRAID WHEN THE DEMONSTRATION STARTED, HOW DID YOU FEEL AFTER THIS WENT, WENT DOWN? Normareen Shaw:: I really didn’t get upset about it until they carried me to jail. INTERVIEWER:: OH THEY ARRESTED YOU? Normareen Shaw:: Right. INTERVIEWER:: FOR, FOR WHAT, WHAT REASON? Normareen Shaw:: OK. Before I start running the café my mother and my step-father ran that café. They went out of business. Everything was left there. The way it was. OK, my step-father had a gun and it was there, somewhere, I don’t know where because it wasn’t mine. INTERVIEWER:: BUT THAT NIGHT THEY CHOSE TO ARREST YOU FOR THE GUN? Normareen Shaw:: They found that—right. And they found that. Right. And, as I understand it, that’s why they carried me to jail. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT WAS THE REACTION OF THE PEOPLE WHEN THEY KNEW THAT JIMMIE LEE JACKSON DIED? Normareen Shaw:: Very upsetting. Very upsetting. INTERVIEWER:: OK. WANT TO CUT, CHARLIE? CAMERA CREW MEMBER:: CUT. [[cut]]

00:07:37.000 - 00:10:44.000

INTERVIEWER:: —A LITTLE LESS— CAMERA CREW MEMBER:: SPEED. INTERVIEWER:: —CAUSE I’M—ARE THERE ANY WHITES IN THIS TOWN THAT WHEN YOU TALK WITH THEM YOU FEEL CONFIDENT THAT YOU’RE UNDERSTANDING THEM AND THEY’RE UNDERSTANDING YOU AND YOU BOTH ARE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH? I MEAN, DO YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP WITH ANY OF THE WHITE PEOPLE IN TOWN? Normareen Shaw:: Some, yes. INTERVIEWER:: HAS THE FACT THAT YOU NOW HAVE A BLACK SHERIFF, HAS THAT CHANGED THE ATMOSPHERE AT ALL? Normareen Shaw:: [pause] I believe to a certain extent. Maybe not with all people, but with some. [[pause]] INTERVIEWER:: THANKS. DID PEOPLE—AFTER JIMMY LEE JACKSON DIED, AND EVEN TODAY, I MEAN DID YOU REALLY FEEL ANGRY AND BITTER? HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS YOUNG MAN, I THINK IN HIS, HIS EARLY TWENTIES AND, AS YOU SAY, HE WAS A GOOD YOUNG MAN AND A DECENT PERSON THAT HIS LIFE WAS CUT SHORT? HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT? HOW DID YOU FEEL THEN? Normareen Shaw:: I felt very sad about it. [pause] For one reason, to know that a person would have to die that way— INTERVIEWER:: YEAH. Normareen Shaw:: —trying to, maybe, find himself or find his place into society. And I have often wondered if blacks were really being accepted as people, as human beings or if we were just something out there. INTERVIEWER:: DO YOU THINK THAT JIMMY LEE’S DEATH ACHIEVED SOMETHING IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT? Normareen Shaw:: I believe it did. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT DO YOU THINK—I MEAN HOW DO YOU THINK IT CONTRIBUTED? Normareen Shaw:: Well, maybe people began to show more concern. [pause] Maybe blacks who were not interested, maybe, decided— INTERVIEWER:: GOT INTERESTED. Normareen Shaw:: Right. INTERVIEWER:: HOW DID IT EFFECT, BY THE WAY, THE BLACK POPULATION IN THE TOWN? DID THE MOVEMENT THEN—DID IT GROW STRONGER IN MARION, AS YOU REMEMBER, OR, OR WHAT WAS THE RESULTS OF THE DEATH? Normareen Shaw:: It grew stronger. INTERVIEWER:: IT DID? Normareen Shaw:: It grew stronger. INTERVIEWER:: PEOPLE WERE NOT INTIMIDATED BY THIS? Normareen Shaw:: No. No. INTERVIEWER:: GOT’CHA. Normareen Shaw:: Right. INTERVIEWER:: DID—HOW DID HIS MOTHER TAKE THIS, BY THE WAY? DID YOU KNOW HIS MOTHER? Normareen Shaw:: Yes, I knew his mother. INTERVIEWER:: WAS IT VERY HARD FOR HER? WAS THAT THE ONLY SON OR— Normareen Shaw:: I believe so. INTERVIEWER:: NICE. Normareen Shaw:: Right. INTERVIEWER:: OKIDOKE [sic]. THANKS, CHARLIE. CAMERA CREW MEMBER:: CUT. [[pause]] [[pause]] [[cut]] [[end of interview]]