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Camera Crew Member #1:: Slate. Camera Crew Member #2:: This is Black Champions, camera roll 400, Les Matthews interview. Camera Crew Member #1:: Camera roll 500. Camera Crew Member #2:: Five hundred. Interviewer:: [background discussion persists] Les, we're gonna talk about champions, particularly people from 1940 to the present. And let's start with the category of champion. I wonder if you'd talk about the way you view championship play, the kind of people you consider. What go-, what are the kind of qualities that go into a person being a champion in your opinion? Les Matthews:: Well, the qualities I believe make a real champions [sic] was displayed by Joe Louis and Jackie Robinson and, Althea Gibson. I'll take Joe Louis first because he was the, a champion, he's a champion's champion. He was a fighter but not only was he a fighter but he was a gentleman and the—although he was an employee for Ford Motor Company, we know, before he was taken and trained by Joe Black and J-, John Roxborough. He said a lot of things, but he was not known as a talker, and Joe Louis showed his contempt for individuals in the ring, especially when he fought Max Schmeling and Tony Galento from Jersey. He was very angry with Galento for knocking him down, and he got up and he ended the fight right then, the next round, next couple rounds. What, Schmeling didn't give him a chance to start on him because Schmeling said he saw something in the first fight and he knocked Louis out in the second fight. Louis came and annihilated him in, think it was one round. Louis said a lot of things that remained a lasting memory in people's minds today like, we'll win because we are on God's side; or, he can run but he can't hide. He was a quiet man when he was fighting. Even in the camp they had to, John Roxborough had to almost make him talk. But after his fighting days were over and he used to sit around the, with the fellows in Shalimar Restaurant on Seventh Avenue, he would loosen up and talked a lot. He liked to talk and explain, and explain golf with the fellows that he know, likes [sic] Charlie Sifford and Ray Robinson. And he discussed some of his fights, not all of them. A lot of people thought that Jersey Joe Walcott defeated him in the Garden when they first fought; he would elaborate on that. He said he thought he won two, but in the second fight he stopped Jersey Joe. Jersey Joe, by the way, was a veteran fighter. He was also a champion; he was, he moved like a champion; he boxed like a champion, and he showed he had the qualities that champions are made of. He became the first black boxing commissioner in New Jersey. Jersey Joe is retired now, and Joe Louis went on to become a host, out in Las Vegas. He, [phone rings] he tried a lot of things in Harlem. He was a host in a nightclub—one minute. [answers telephone] Yeah, hello. [[slate]] [[production discussion]] [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #1:: Stick it. Camera Crew Member #2:: Take two. Camera Crew Member #1:: Thank you. Interviewer:: Les, we were talking about the qualities that make people champions, and— Les Matthews:">: Yeah. Interviewer:: —we discussed Joe Louis and Jersey Wal-, Jersey Joe Walcott. Les Matthews:": Uh-huh. Interviewer:: Let's talk more about the, those qualities that you feel are, are particularly special to people. Les Matthews:": Well, Louis was honest; he was sincere. Interviewer:: Could you start that again? I— Les Matthews:": Louis was honest and he was sincere. He listened to people; he didn't ignore anyone—is why his fans loved him. Even if he didn't say anything to them, he'd look at them when they talked to him, and he would listen. Another champion with a lot of qualities was Jersey Joe Walcott, who was a veteran fighter before he became a champion. He had been in the ring many years, almost two decades, before he won the championship, but he also was sincere. He was also truthful, except the night he won the fight, won [phone rings] the championship from, from Ezzard Charles in Cleveland with a knockout. And in his corner that night was Vic Mars-, Marcello, who was his manager. And he was also surprised that Jersey Joe went on to become the first black boxing commissioner of New J-, boxing in New Jersey. A-, another fighter showed a lot of quality when he became champion was Muhammed Ali, who was first introduced to me by one-time society editor here, Sarah Slack, who went to see him win his first championship. He won the Olympic heavyweight title in Asia. I think it was Japan or China. And Sarah came back and praised him and said he would be the next world champion, and sh-, she was right. Muhammed Ali was different from the other champions. He was vocal; he was amusin'; he was capable of doin' and sayin' almost anything. The poetry side of Muhammed Ali was f- first introduced by his friend who became his corner man, Bundini—Bundini Brown who was a former seaman, and he became a friend of Ali, when Ali first came to New York and stopped at Ray Robinson's Tavern which was located on Seventh Avenue. He also became a poet when he would predict rounds as fighters would go, or a fighter would be knocked out; and he was usually right. Another champion showed remarkable quality that champions are made of, was Jackie Robinson, who displayed a lot of things. He was a versatile young man. He, he was a champion in track, he was a champion in boxing, t-, also, and he was also a champion in, [pause] I think it was deca-, decathalon. It's—no, it wasn't decathalon. He was a high jumper. He became the first black to be signed up by the, the majors when several young men including [unintelligible], Joe Bostic, Chick Solomon...Dan Burley went to Bear's Mountain where the, Branch Rickey was, had a camp, tryout camp for players [phone rings] for the Dodgers. He was signed when he went there, when he was first introduced to Ricky, because, as Rickey said, he sh-, had lotta potentials. [sic] Jackie was quiet during his early days with the Dod-, with the Montréal Royals, and he didn't become vocal until he joined the, until he joined the Dodgers in Brooklyn at Ebbet's Field. Then he showed his quality as a player, as a man, and as a, a leader. I think Jackie Robinson stands out of above all with the qualities that make a champion. He had everything. Then there was Sugar Ray Robimson was a different s-, type of champion, but he was like a ballet dancer in the ring. He could make a fight look easy, make it look hard; he could knock a man's head off his—and he was also a, a dancer. He tried to go on the stage too, by the way. Jackie, Ray Robinson did, as a dancer, and, but boxing— Les Matthews:": —called him first. [clears throat] He was first— Camera Crew Member #1:: Cut. Interviewer:: We out? [[camera roll 500]] [[sound roll 401]] [[slate]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #1:: Camera roll five-oh-one. Interviewer:: Les, a lot of the people we, who will look at this show don't know very much about the conditions that existed during the period that Jackie Robinson was coming to the Major Leagues. Of course, there were no black players in, in Major League Baseball prior to '40-, '47. What was the atmosphere like as you recall? And how, how were people for example in, in, in Harlem, how were black people reacting? What was the general atmosphere in, in and around the game when Jackie Robinson arrived in the Major Leagues? Les Matthews:": Well, before Jackie Robinson signed with the Dodgers, they were apathetic. They went to the black leagues who played in the Polo Grounds in Yankee Stadium, or Dexter Park, or in another park in Brooklyn, or in, in Newark at the Ruppert Stadium. But they didn't go to the ballgames, the major leagues, much. When Jackie signed with the Dodgers, there was a big change. The, the black leagues disappeared and they, the major leagues, they took all the customers. Ebbet's Field had a sell-out day almost every day when Jackie played. That was the big difference. And Jackie showed the fans that he can play. He did everything on the bases: he ran the bases; he would make the other team throw the ball away; he would steal bases. He was an amazin' man, in the field, on the field, or off the field. [[camera roll 501]] [[sound roll 402]] [[slate]] [[Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]] Interviewer:: He obviously must have played under a good deal of pressure. How, how did— Les Matthews:": Well, he k-, he, he took care of that. He did, for the first year— Les Matthews:": —they, it was bothered a lot by a lot of racial slurs and, and even some of his teammates didn't want to play with him. But he conquered them, and he conquered the fans, too, with his ability to play and sh-, his display of skill on the playing field. [[missing frames]] [[Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]] [[missing frames]]

00:13:19.000 - 00:22:01.000

Interviewer:: You recall, I think, a young tennis player here in Harlem, named Althea Gibson— Les Matthews:": Althea Gibson. Althea Gibson was a track star. Interviewer:: Les, would you start again? Les Matthews:": Althea Gibson was a track star. She could do everything on the athletic field. She could play ball, she could play basketball, and she was also an excellent bowler, very good bowler. Her first mentor, I think, was Rev. Marston Burnell, who used to run track every morning, run from Harlem to Forty-Second Street to get the papers, out-of-town papers, and then he'd run back uptown. People thought he was nuts, but now we see a, a host of people running back and forth around the street all day, in shorts. Althea played basketball for Marston Burnell, and she was an excellent basketball player. And, and then she started taking up tennis. I think Buddy Walker was the f-—the dance bandleader, who was also a basketball player—gave her her first tennis racket. And she was a very special girl, and she commanded a lot of attention. [radio interference] And she displayed a lot of class when she played tennis. Interviewer:: Joe Yance-— Camera Crew Member #3:: —ask that again; I got some radio interference. Interviewer:: The, the whole thing? Camera Crew Member #3:: Just the last part of his answer. Interviewer:: Oh, j-, just the last thing you said about, about— Les Matthews:": Althea? I said that she was a, an excellent player, and— Interviewer:: I think you said she was a, Althea was a very special— Les Matthews:": Yes, she was a— Interviewer:: Would— Les Matthews:": —spec-— Interviewer:: —you say that sentence again? Les Matthews:": Yeah, Althea was a special person. She could do everything on the athletic field. Interviewer:: We have talked with Joe Yancey, of course, who developed a number of outstanding track stars. Les Matthews:": Joe Yancey developed a number of track stars, and Olympic champions also. He, he was the coach of the, the West Indian team. On his team, on that particular Olympic team, he coached the likes of George Rhoden, Mal Whitfield, Andy, Andy [pause]— Interviewer:: Stanfield. Les Matthews:": Stanfield, and oh, I don't remember. But they were champions and, and [phone rings] Joe Yancey knew how to train fighters—Joe knew how to train track stars. He traveled all over the world, but he didn't get to, to train a team for the Americans. He was very unlucky. Well, everyone said because of his color, but he never was able to convince the Olympic Committee in the United States that he was capable of trainin' and bringin' home champions. Interviewer:: We spoke earlier, Les, about a, a very sp-, [cough] very special Harlem figure who's, who's since passed away, but who had a great impact on young people in this, in this area. His name was Holcombe Rucker. I don't know if you— Les Matthews:": Holcombe Rucker was just a, a normal Harlem youngster who thought and believed that the children in New York City were missin' something. He organized the youngsters who play, wanted to play ball and, and organized the Rucker tournament, which was, which became a, a, a national thing. It was all out West. Rucker would get the kids who played for him, shoes, sneakers to play with, and get them trunks to play in. He also had the likes of—the guy is now a senator in the White House. Interviewer:: Bill Bradley. Les Matthews:": —Bill Bradley and, well, he, he invited everyone up here to play ball. Rhoden worked in the, for the Parks Department, and when they refused to fix the, the park, to fix the holes— Interviewer:: Les, let's start again. I think you said Roden. I think you mean Rucker? Les Matthews:": Rucker worked for the Parks Department, and when they failed to fix the park, he would get up early in the morning, go there and fix it himself. He'd even cement the ground, the broken face of the court. And he raised three children, he lived with his wife in the Bronx Project, and he worked, and then he went to school. He became a teacher, and still conducted the tournament. And he was a one-man organization. He'd keep score, coach bo-, both teams, and be the doctor. They, when the boys get injured, he would, there, he was there to cover their wounds. And he, that's his whole life, was the kids; he would get 'em some afterschool training. He'd make sure that they s-, do their homework. And Rucker began to get the kids scholarships. Now he had, oh, hundreds of youngsters got schol-, became college students. One of his students was McCullough, Bob McCullough, who now runs the Each One Teach One tournament, which has a base at the IS201. Hundreds of youngsters have joined that organization, and then several of the boys have also won scholarships. That's Rucker. That's Rucker's life. Interviewer:: If you were to think in strictly personal terms, who would the people be that you have enjoyed seeing in championshionship-level athletics over the years? Les Matthews:": Well, I enjoy watching Charlie Sifford play golf; Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis—everyone enjoyed Joe Louis. And Muhammed Ali—like him or not, you have to enjoy him, because he was comical, he was friendly; he was, he boasts; he, he did everything, and everything he did worked in his favor. Sweetwater Clifton. He also was the first in the the National Basketball Association. I remember Clifton, Sweetwater Clifton, when he played with the [pause], the [pause]— Interviewer:: Globetrotters? Les Matthews:": Globe-, the Harlem Globetrotters. The night he was, when he was signed up, when he first play [sic] in the Garden, for the Knicks, that was the first time they integrated the press table in the Garden. A man by the name of Scott was in charge of the, of the Garden at that time, and his aide was Joe Goldstein, who runs a big firm now, public relations firm, somewhere downtown. [clears throat] Joe Goldstein and Scott got together and Pol-, Poloff— P-o-l-o-f-f; he just died. He was the guy that invented the five— Les Matthews:": —second clock in basketball. He was also the man— Camera Crew Member #2:: Cut. Les Matthews:": —that— Interviewer:: We're out. Camera Crew Member #1:: Yes, sir. Interviewer:: We gotta change rolls. Camera Crew Member #1:: [coughs] Take— [[cut]] [[cut]]

00:22:02.000 - 00:28:05.000

Camera Crew Member #1:: OK, stick it. Camera Crew Member #2:: Five-oh-two, camera roll. Camera Crew Member #2:: OK. Camera Crew Member #1:: OK. Interviewer:: Les, we were talking earlier about some figures that you remember. You were telling me that years ago, there were black fight promoters functioning around the city. I wonder if you'd talk about some of them. Les Matthews:": Yeah, years ago there was black fight promoters. The first one—the most memorable one, I, I think—was a, a man, Frank Forbes. He was a promoter of baseball. He promoted most of black baseball games that were played here and in Philadelphia; but there were some fight promoters, Al Joyner who promoted the Audubon Ballroom, and Bob Garn-, Garner, who promoted in Jersey. He came out of Newark. Al Joyner promoted several fights at the Audobon Ballroom. And then, then there was also Fred Irvin, from out of Grubbs Gym, 116th Street. Fred Irvin was probably the, the most known of all the black promoters because he did a lotta funny things when he was [phone rings] promoting. Then there was [phone rings]—those are the chief black promoters [phone rings]. But Bob Douglas was also also a promoter, but he, he was not as well-known in that field as the fellas I named before. [[camera roll 502]] [[sound roll 401]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: You said, you said one of them did a lot of funny things— Les Matthews:": Yeah, that's Fred—well, yeah, that's Fred Irvin. You know, one time Fred Irvin had the wife of the president up here, for a horse show he that promoted up, up where the, the Polo Grounds—n-, up where the, the housing project now stand, the Esplanade Garden. He had Mrs. Roosevelt up there in a horse show. He was a very shrewd man; he knew what he was doing, but he got a lot of people in trouble. Gettin' back to basketball, the first team to play in the, basketball in the Garden, in the old Garden on Fiftieth Street, was the team of collegiates. They include Joe Horsedeal, Buddy Walker who became a musician; John Holmes, Crip Romney, Jack Livingston, and Bricktop Wright. Most of them have, have been deceased. Harlem also is one of the first places to name a center after a youngster who was brought up in the streets in Harlem. His name is John Roser Hansborough Recreation Center on the West 134th Street. And this was the first time this happened in New York that a black boy [phone rings] a black boy was remembered by the people [phone rings] as a [sic] outstandin' youngster. [phone rings] Also in the Harlem area, [phone rings] we have a young man by the name of George Gregory. Not [phone rings] George Gregory. George Gregory was the, was the first captain [phone rings] of a Columbia basketball team. And he was also the, the coach of a playground, 134th street, where the candy center now stands. That used to be a playground. R-, Ali Edinburgh is the young man [phone rings], I think, that's around now, that [phone rings] was brought up in Harlem and knew trains and [phone rings], and coached basketball teams, and hundreds of youngsters have been benefited by Ali Edinburgh's teachin' and coachin' and [pause]— Interviewer:: Les? Les Matthews:": Hmm? Interviewer:: Again, you, if you focus in, one of the things I'd like to talk with you about—and I know you can probably give this much more information about this than anybody around right now. There are a lot of black athletes at the collegiate and the professional level, but very few black sportswriters. You are one who, I'm sure, have through the experience of being the only one. You talk about the, the time when they d-, integrated the— Les Matthews:": Mm-hmm. Interviewer:: —press table at the Garden. Why so few black sports writers? And what have your experiences in that regard, have been? Have you had to, had to go up against the, the sports establishment to get into some of these events? Have other people tried? Les Matthews:": Les Matthews: Interviewer:: Who, who particularly were—were, were—let's— Les Matthews:": All of them. Interviewer:: —the teams here. Yankee Stadium— Les Matthews:": All, all of them. Yankee Stadium, and then, then after the Yankees—the old Yankees, they're the ones that lowered a, lowered a, their barrier. And after the Dodgers did, there was, not too hard, Dodgers and the Giants. And everyone treated us well.

00:28:06.000 - 00:30:02.000

Interviewer:: Do you think kids should be encouraged to go into sports writing? You still, I know when I— Les Matthews:": Yes, I think they should. I think they should. Interviewer:: Sh-, tell us, tell us [unintelligible]— Les Matthews:": But they don't; the youngster don't want to sacrifice. It takes a lot of sacrifice, and they have to work sometime without pay, and they, they have to be, prompt, they have to know what time is; and a lot of youngsters don't want to do that. Interviewer:: What about the younger players? You came along at a period when, to be an athlete, let alone to be a champion, required a lot of dedication, hard work. Les Matthews:": Yeah. Interviewer:: Some people feel that that's not the case now. Les Matthews:": Well, no, because they, they get paid high salaries right away. A kid, he's not even out of school and he's offered a million dollars. It, it makes the others feel like they can't make it, or they, or there is no sense of them working hard because they want to—they want to get paid a lot of money, anyway. Especially if they have some skill and they are known to be a champion ballplayer, even college, they're offered all k-, kinds of money. Interviewer:: Les, I wonder, and if we could sum this up by getting you to state—again I know we talked about this at the beginning. But what do you think it requires for a kid, or what would you say to a youngster— Les Matthews:": Requires— Interviewer:: —on the streets of Harlem today. What does it require to be a champion? Les Matthews:": It requires dedication. A young man who knows what time means; skill; and going to school and learn his lessons.

00:30:03.000 - 00:31:03.000

Interviewer:: Who, who would you would point to, who are the people you'd point them to as models of that kind of thing? Les Matthews:": Well, there's a boxer boxing tonight who is the Garden who, who was—not tonight, t-, tomorrow, who is a college student. There are quite a few college students were taking up boxing, and baseball, and basketball, and they're also going to their, to their profession after they're completed playing. They continue by going into a profession that they went out for. Interviewer:: Is there any final statement you'd like to share with us? Les Matthews:": No, just more than—athletes should play the game, play it fair and square. Camera Crew Member #1:: Cut. [[cut]] [[end of interview]]