00:00:00.000 - 00:05:00.000

Camera Crew Member #1:: OK, Clayton. Interviewer:: Coach John Thompson, I wonder if we could start by getting a, start this talking a little bit about John Thompson as a, as a young man growing up in Washington, D.C. I'm particularly interested in knowing if you came out of an atmosphere where it was books first, and ball afterward, or perhaps a division of the two. What kind of atmosphere did you, did you find you were growing up in— Interviewer:: —in the '60s? John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I, I think that probably I got interested in education as a result of my interest in basketball not, I don't think books was ever first to me until I got to a point of high school or got into college and realized that in order for me to use the basketball the way I wanted to use it, that I had to do some academic things, and, and I think that basketball led me to an environment that made me more conscience, conscious of the benefits of education. I, I think that happens with a lot of young people. I don't think that it matters whether you were interested in education first or athletics first. I think the most important thing is that you get to the point that you realize and learn to appreciate the need for an education. [[tone]] [[missing frames]] [[Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]] [[missing frames]] Interviewer:: Did that, did what you've just said, did that help you inf-, did that influence your choice to going to a school like Providence? Was it, was it a, an athletic program, or an academic progr-, combination of the two, that attracted you there? John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I think my selection of Providence was primarily predicated on my mother's interests in the Dominican fathers. I, I think she had had some experiences in Washington, D.C. with the, with the Dominican fathers. And probably a lot of my interests were basketball related, but at that point in time I had began to realize that a-, academics was going to be a very important part; that the two had to run together simultaneously; and I think I wanted to be in an environment where I felt comfortable with the athletic program and the academic program, and I didn't want to be at a very large school. I felt that I had to get the kind of individual a-, attention that Providence provided for me at that time. Interviewer:: Did you make the decision, or was the decision put to you, that you should take a shot at pro basketball? I mean, did you go into it because you felt, hey, out of this experience at Providence I think I should go this route? John Thompson:: Well, I, I think most young people—I, I don't think you make the decision. I don't think it's a conscious— John Thompson:: —effort, but I, I think most young people, particularly a lot of young black kids, feel that athletics is one of the only avenues in which you can get into the mainstream society. And that's a lot of what you saw your role models. You heard about Jackie Robinson. You heard about Larry Doby; heard about boxers like Joe Louis. And most of the black people who had done significant things in other disciplines were not recognized for it, Interviewer:: Tell us about some of the people who influenced you when you were high school and a, and a college student. Were there people in your life you fel-, or people in life who you felt were influences? John Thompson:: Well, I, I think probably if I look back at the things that influenced me the most, it probably was my mother, father. You know, I, when I look back at it, I think—particularly direct influence. I think that there's a lot of indirect influence and most of those people probably were sports figures. But I, I think—my father was born in southern Maryland fifty-six miles south of Washington, D.C., and he never went to school; he couldn't even write his own name; but he was a tremendous advocate of education. He knew and appreciated the value of an education, and he always constantly said to you, if you got an education, that was something that the white man could not take away from you. He said that every other day. And I, I think that it really brought out the significance to me of the fact that, because I respected and loved him, that it must be something to this educational thing. My mother, I thought, was a very sweet person, and she had gone to Miner Teachers College in Washington D.C., and she also was an advocate of education. I think sometimes she pitied me. It reminds me of Mister T— she pitied the fool [laughs] and she wanted me to become more interested in academics than I probably was in my earlier stage of development. But I had a tremendous desire to please my mother, so as the fan started to blow and the fire started to catch up academically, I got a great deal of satisfaction out of some of my academic successes, because I knew that that pleased my mother an awful lot. So I, I would say that my mother probably was the strongest force of inspiration; and my father. Camera Crew Member #1:: Cut. [[cut]]

00:05:01.000 - 00:10:29.000

Interviewer:: —play professional ball, finding out you were gonna play for the Celtics. What was—how did you find out, first of all? John Thompson:: Well, you, you go through the draft system; when, when, Boston—I was in Paris with the United States basketball team, touring, and I picked up a Washington Post, ironically, in Paris. And it was, it listed in it that the Boston Celtics had drafted me in the third round; and in my mind I said that, you know, this is something that I've always wanted to do and this is something that I really wanted to try to do. I had been offered a job at that point by Goodyear in Akron, and it was a major decision that had to be made at that time because Goodyear wanted me to come in their management training program, and I said to myself at that point that this is something that I've worked very hard for; it's something that I want to at least find out whether I'm able to do, that I knew that I couldn't give a total commitment to Goodyear if I didn't at least try. So I decided and tried out for the Celtics. [[missing sound]] [[production discussion]] Interviewer:: What was that experience like? John Thompson:: Well, it was a tremendous pressure experience. I, I, I, I think that it was the first time that I've ever been put in a situation—because up until then, basketball had been relatively easy and not as competitive for me. I was a [sic] exceptionally tall person and I had reasonably good skills and I knew pretty much when I went out for a team that I would make the team, it was just a question of how much I would play. But this was one of the first times that I, I had really gotten into a situation where I had to make the team with basketball. I had experienced that in baseball as a kid because baseball was my first love. So I knew what competition was in baseball. I had to make teams. But in basketball the first time I encountered it in the NBA. But I saw it as a challenge. And I was in Omaha, Nebraska, and the trainer—in those days, the Celtics would send the trainer for you, to tell you that you were cut, or to tell you that you made the team, or to tell you to come to see Red Auerbach, so he could tell you that. And I, I remember one night I was watching the television with a friend of mine and he knocked, and the trainer knocked on the door and told me that he, Mr. Auerbach wanted to see me and I said, oh God [laughs], this is the longest walk that I'll ever take in my life. And I walked the length of the hall and knocked on the door and he, heard this voice, come in, and the smoke-filled room—because Red was always smoking a cigar. And he told me to sit down and then he said, I want to congratulate you. He said, you did a good job, you made this team. And that was one of the greatest moments of my life competitively because I really and sincerely felt that that was something that, you know, I had accomplished in a competitive situation, and it was a goal that I had always strived for. And as I think most kids do today. You know, I, I think that they, most kids who enter into athletic competition, want to be professional athletes. Interviewer:: About—Red Auerbach said of you that he was very proud of you as a player because you were tough, you were smart, you worked very hard, you gave him 100%, and you didn't get to play that much, but when you did play, you were ready to play, and—how do you, how do you do that? How do you, if you're not, if you're sitting all the time—I mean, keeping in shape is a problem, for one thing. John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I think you have competitive pride. I don't think that people who are successful do things for money. I think they should insist upon getting paid if they're good, and, and, and, and I think that I always wanted to be good at what I did. I, didn't anybody make me play basketball with the Boston Celtics. I had another option to go, Goodyear's management program. So I felt that since I chose to do this, that I should do the best that I could regardless of the situation, and I felt that it was my responsibility to be ready when the opportunity provided itself, whether it was one minute, whether it was five minutes, because I was playing behind the greatest basketball player ever to play the game, Bill Russell. And I always respected Russ, but I always envied him at that time too, because I wanted to play. But I thought that I had to do the best that I could for John Thompson's sake, you know, not for anybody else's sake, but just to know that I had done as well as I could. So I saw it as my responsibility to stay in shape and to be mentally up, and to try to encourage the people that were playing and to try to do the best that I could do. Interviewer:: Red Auerbach established with the Celtics what I think everyone accepts as one of America's premier tranc-, championship traditions. It's a championship organization. But what goes into that? What, why the Bostic Celtics, eleven championships in thirteen years and s-, and not some other club? John Thompson:: Well— Interviewer:: —what was the atmosphere like? John Thompson:: Well, I, I think the thing that Red did is he had an exceptional ability, as much as any man that I've ever seen alive, to get men to move and to do things; and to create a sense of pride and dignity among individuals, and make that a collective feeling. I, I think most of the people who he gathered around him were people who originally had that little inner pride. But to make it a cohesive unit, I think Red Auerbach was an exceptional person at doing that. He had an unusual ability of recognizing the things that you did to contribute to the team. A lot of people only recognize the star of the team or one individual. But if I sat on the bench and if I did cheer, and if when I got in for two minutes I played as hard as I could, he would acknowledge that. And I think all people want recognition. So I guess what I'm saying is that R-, Red had an unusual ability to, to move men. I, I think probably as well as anybody that I've ever met in my life.

00:10:30.000 - 00:16:05.000

Interviewer:: At some point— John Thompson:: I've gotta [wipes face]— Camera Crew Member #3:: Go ahead. John Thompson:: Mm-hmm. Camera Crew Member #3:: Keep going. Interviewer:: OK. [laughs] Yes, I'm sorry, we can, we can [unintelligible]— Camera Crew Member #2:: We're almost out, Clayton. Interviewer:: Are we? Camera Crew Member #2:: Yeah. Interviewer:: Then we better, we better cut, 'cause the next question will take— [[tone]] [[production discussion]] [[cut]] Camera Crew Member #1:: This'll be camera roll two. Camera Crew Member #2:: OK, whenever. Interviewer:: You play for the Celtics in sixty-six and sixty-seven. Sometime during that period, you make a decision about your life and what you want to do with— Interviewer:: —it. I wonder if you'd tell us a little bit about that. John Thompson:: Well, I, I played with Boston for two years, the '64-'65, '65-'66 season, and I had to make a decision because the NBA expanded and Chicago Bulls came in, and when Chicago came in the league, they had the right to take two players off of each team, and I was one of the players that they selected. And at that point in time, when I found that out, I made a decision that there were some other things that were gonna be very meaningful to me in my life, and I thought that, n-,now is the time for me to attempt to do it. I did not want to be a journeyman basketball player in the NBA. I think the appetite which I had in the beginning to play in the NBA, to just, to be a professional athlete and to see what the life was like, and to see whether I could be successful at it, had gone at that point, because— John Thompson:: —it's like anything else that, a lot of what—anticipation is twice as great as realization, and I had experienced some of the realization and knew at that point in time that I liked it, but it wasn't what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. And I always had a desire to teach in some form and always enjoyed working with young people, and I, I thought that I wanted to just go back to Washington and explore the possibilities of doing some other things. And I came back and worked for United Planning Organization in Washington, which was a part of the poverty program during those days. And I worked, really, with dropout young people, people who'd dropped out of school, and kids who had been in problem situations with the law who had to get acclimated to work situations. And I, I really and sincerely enjoyed it and I still see some of them now who've grown up, and periodically when I go to a gym to watch basketball players, a guy will walk u-, walk up to me and shake hands and say, hey, you lookin' at my son. Remember, you had me in the Park Service. And it was really rewarding, and it was a different kind of experience for me. [[tone]] [[missing frames]] [[Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]] [[missing frames]] Interviewer:: What was it like coming back to Washington? You spend a couple of years traveling all around the country as a professional ball player. What's like to come back home now? John Thompson:: Well, I, I think that that when, when one goes to college and, and leaves home—and at that, in those days—you asked about the decision to go to Providence, and it was not a choice, in terms of Washington, to be able to participate, first of all, at the level, because most blacks during that time, either went to school in New England or way out west, because Georgetown University and most of the southern universities weren't as willing to receive blacks in a manner in which I wanted to be received, and certainly they weren't participating in the scholarship sports at that time, and, so that's why I went to New England. And when I came back to Washington, I think that that a lot of your friends, the, the general transitions that you go through, a lot of your friends have grown up; a lot of your friends have gotten involved in other things. And I had to make the normal adjustments that most people make, you know, getting back into the world of work, because athletics tends to be a fantasy at this point in time; you have to realize now that I'm gonna get a nine-to-five. You know, I'm gonna get up in the morning, I'm gonna go to work; I'm gonna have somebody supervising me, and I'm gonna have a responsibility. And I, I think that was one of the greatest experiences that had, I have encountered simply because it gave me a real bite of the real world; because athletics, again, you know, puts you in a world that, you tend to be waited on in a lot of ways, or things tend to be planned for you and you're really programmed to be dependent on people by the nature of athletics. So I, I think coming back to Washington was a tremendous learning experience for me, and having a normal so-called job was a great experience for me. Interviewer:: What brought you to Saint Anthony's, To coaching? John Thompson:: Well, that was accident. When, when I went over to coach at Saint Anthony's, one night I was at home, and the parish priest, Father Bailey, who is now Monsignor Bailey, in Washington, called me and he said, I understand that, you know, you're home, and y-, y-, I know that you were a good basketball player. Would you be interested in coaching the parish high school team? And, I told him really, I hadn't given a lot of thought to it, but I'd like to come around and talk to you about it. So I went to the rectory and spoke to him about it, and he described the team to me, and didn't want the kids to practice on Saturday, didn't want 'em to practice on Sunday, and wanted 'em to go home relatively early, so that they could have an opportunity to study. And I was pretty much amused with that when he was saying that because he, ended up telling, he s-, ended up telling me all the things he didn't want them to do; but on the same token, just have a little fun. And I said, could I come over tomorrow to see the team? So I came over, and it was at lunchtime. They brought the kids to the gymnasium, which was also the cafeteria of Saint Anthony's, and the kids lined up in a line, and it was a straight line. And in basketball, that's not good, you know, particularly if the line consist of people who are five-eleven. [laughs] So [wipes face] there were some decisions that, you know, I had to make there at the school; and I laughed and I told him I'd do it; I s-, I'd enjoy doing it. But I said, Father, I wanna warn you, my competitive instincts won't permit me to be just satisfied with having an average team. I wanna win; and so, you know, we started the program and we took our lumps in the first year, but after that we gave a few. And I got some good basketball players to come to Saint Anthony's, some tall people.

00:16:06.000 - 00:26:22.000

Interviewer:: I was watching a group of kids here, who were here this morning, and as we looked at 'em, it, it, it brought to mind the idea that maybe you see champions before the fact. Maybe you s-, there are things you spot in the kids, not necessarily only in their athletic ability, but in attitude. And you've mentioned having big people at Saint Anthony's. What are you looking for in a kid at Sainth [sic] An-, at that time at Saint, in, to come to St. Anthony's? John Thompson:: Well, a-, at Saint Anthony's, I, I think you're looking more so in contributing to a kid's future life. I, I think that probably my goals and objectives were to see that the kids that we had would be successful and to, to go off to college and to graduate. And, and I realized at that point in time what athletics had done for me, and I knew that most of the kids' that I had at Saint Anthony's parents weren't in a position to pay their way through college, and I knew that athletics had to be the vehicle that, to get them into college and to get them out of college; and I was extremely conscious of that. They talk about the graduation rate here at Georgetown that we have had, but we had an extremely high successful graduation rate from college of our high school players that we had at Saint Anthony's. So philosophically that's been something that I've been interested in all along. A lot of the kids went off to college and got—and that's what I was concerned with. I was always talking to 'em about, hey, use this to go to college because I did it. And, now, let me show you the things you have to do, and let's work on, and I was very interested in contacting college coaches and saying, hey, I've got little guard over here that can help you. And whether it was Division One, Division Two, it didn't matter to me. I wanted to see the players that we had to go to school and to use athletics. And that gave me a tremendous f-, feeling of satisfaction. I'm not certain whether I did that for them or did that for myself. I think that inside, I, I felt that, you know, was something that gave me a tremendous feeling of satisfaction. But as far as ability is concerned, you, you do look for character in people. I don't think you can win alone with character. I, I, I th-, I hear people talkin' about character, and character's fine. You have to have ability, people who have the physical attributes to perform the functions and the objectives of the game; but if you do not have character, you will not win. I'm positive of that. You've got to have kids who have a sense of pride, a sense of satisfaction, a sense of belonging to a group, and a sense of wanting to achieve things together. And I, I, I think that that's one of the keys to motivation, is selection, you know. I, I think that you motivate a lot of people by being able to devel-, identify people who are interested in succeeding. I don't think you change many people. Professional counselors, professional psychologists change people, but a, a good basketball coach is able to identify those people who have the desire to change, but might not necessarily have been provided with the opportunity or the resources to fulfill his innate abilities. And, and that was one of the things that I tried to do. I tried to identify those people who I felt had the potential, had the desire, and I referred those people who didn't have the character or desire to counselors, professional counselors, you know, or professional psychologists. Interviewer:: When you move from that atmosphere, to an atmosphere of a, of a university, Georgetown— John Thompson:: Mm-hmm. Interviewer:: —are motivational aspects or dimensions the same? What do you have to do now to get kids to take this opportunity seriously? John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I think the biggest distinction between high school athletics and, and the people who you work with in high school and colleges, is that a kid in high school is much easier to indoctrinate. You know, he's looking for direction a lot more than a kid in college is. A college k-, person generally thinks he knows enough about life to be successful, and you've got to almost convince him that y-, you know just enough to mess up the rest of your life if you don't learn more. And, and I think that it's a different kind of challenge, and you have to probably be a lot more prepared. You'll probably be challenged a lot more by a college student, because he possesses more knowledge, and you have to be confident at what you do, because a college person could identify. But I think a lot of things are very similar. I, I, I think that— John Thompson:: [[missing frames] Camera Crew Member #1:: Yeah. This is camera roll number three. Camera Crew Member #2:: OK. Interviewer:: I wonder if you'd talk about a season like this past one, and what kind of things a coach is doing, not only to keep kids interested in the level of basketball they have to play, but in the way they have to live their lives under tremendous pressure obviously, and under constant scrutiny and observation. John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I think o-, one thing about college athletics today i-, is that it's a pot of pressure. And I think that pressure is a way of life, and most people who want to be successful—or reach a high level of success anyway. And I, I think that intercollegian [sic] athletics is a great training ground for that. And what we try to do here at Georgetown is to sit down with the kids and discuss situations. I, I think you might go into a gymnasium where a eighteen-year-old kid and a nineteen-year-old kid is being highly criticized for missing a free throw by a, by an adult, a professional adult. And I, I think that it's my role as a coach to sit down and to, to try to explain that, and walk through that with my players and talk about it; or to even anticipate the fact that it's gonna happen, and to try to prepare the kids for it. I, I, I think that what it does is that when a person— most of college is theory. Most of athletics is theory and practice, and, and I think you get a chance to go through the complete package that you're gonna experience in the real world. And I, I try to, with my players at Georgetown, try to just acclimate them for the r-, the world of work; and, and less than 1% of the athletes are gonna play professional basketball. I make them very much aware of that. I try to translate what experiences they are encountering in basketball and relate those things to what's gonna happen to them in the real world of work, more so than putting the emphasis on the fact that this will prepare you for, for professional athletics. I say professional athletics is an accident—that you reach a certain level of competence and if you are that good, you strive for that. If you, if it happens, fine. But you've got to be ready to prepare yourself for other things, and the pressures and the expectations. People expect you to win when you're a program like Georgetown. That creates a certain amount of pressure. But if I go to work for General Motors, or if I go to work for Coke, or if I go to work for any corporate structure, they gonna expect me to be successful also. So I don't want my players to, to fear expectations, but to prepare themselves properly to try to reach goals and to be able to manage that if it doesn't occur, you know. This year we had an opportunity to compete for the national championship, where—I thought then and I think now that we were the best team in America, but that's decided in a one-game situation in which we lost to a very good Villanova basketball team. And I think at that point, there is a great deal of disappointment in myself and the team, but I, I think that y-, a part of living is learning how to manage failure, or manage lack of success. And, and I think that is my role as a basketball coach to sit down and to try to intelligently deal with that with my players, because I think that regardless of how hard they work, regardless of how intelligent they are, they gonna encounter those things in the world of work, and you've got to restructure, manage the fact that you didn't win, and go on living. So I, I think that there are a lot of similarities in athletics to the real world of work. [[wild sound]] [[tone]] [[cut]] [[Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]] Interviewer:: When you talk to some of the people you've coached here, over more than a dozen years, what do they say about the world of work? What do they say about the relationship between what happened to them while they were here, and what's happening to them— John Thompson:: Well, I, I, I, I, I think a lot of them identify the fact that there are a lot of similarities. It's competitive. Somebody's always trying to make something better, or somebody's always trying to get a raise; somebody's always trying to get your position or you're trying to get somebody else's position; and that's the nature of athletics. And I, I think it's very important for them to identify the characteristics in the world of work that are very similar, and I feel that they feel they are very prepared for it. And they don't panic when they're being criticized, because they have been in a world where there might be sixty thousand people—we've played before sixty thousand people, and you have sixty thousand people, of which thirty thousand are booing you and thirty thousand are cheering you. That's a mixed emotional feeling. So I, I think when you get out and get in the world of work, you learn to appreciate athletics.

00:26:23.000 - 00:30:57.000

Interviewer:: When you lost that game to Villanova, which I suppose all of us saw, and kind of lived along with your players [laughs] though that experience, I couldn't help thinking at the end of the game, keeping alive with the stats, that Georgetown had played a very, very fine ballgame, and it seemed to me that part of the attitude I noticed among the players after the game was not a complete collapse, not a total disappointment, but the fact is, hey, we came, we played ball, we did the best we could. And it seems to me maybe that's what comes out of your program, that you go and you play, you do the best ball you can. John Thompson:: Well, definitely. I, I think our objective is to do the best we, we can; and we say a prayer in the locker room before we come out on the court. I don't be-, [coughs] 'scuse me. We say a prayer in the locker room before we come out each game. I don't believe in gettin' in the middle of the floor and praying, because sometimes I think that's more for show than it is for God. And one of the things we try to do is to say that, you know, we—not that we win, but that we do the best we can. And, and I think that if we do the best we can, and somebody else's better than us, we walk away from it. And that's one of the reasons why when you saw the game you didn't see anybody crying; and you didn't see anybody pouting. We cheered and recognized the fact that somebody had outperformed us that day, and you still, inside, feel very badly. I, I, I think—but that's a part of the learning experience also. And might be a negative learning experience at that point, but I think it'll be transmitted into a positive learning experience when those people get in the world of work, or when they go through various situations in life, and having difficulty with their personal families or having difficulty on their jobs, they learn to manage that properly and not panic, or not feel that I am a total disappointment because I've had one failure. I, I think that that's extremely important. Most people in my life that I've met who have been successful, have probably had more failures than those people who have not been successful, because they have attempted to do more things. And I tell the players on a team that it's very important for you to understand that if you try to do things, if you try to live life to its fullest, you're gonna have s-, failures. And if you have those failures, you've gotta be able to manage them and continue on to try to achieve and to do other things. Interviewer:: Coach— Camera Crew Member #3:: To be— Interviewer:: —one— Camera Crew Member #1:: —to be a champion. Interviewer:: Yeah, that's what I'm gonna—yeah, this is really a final question we ask everybody. But I'd like to put it in a, in a context before we get to the specific question. I wonder if you'd talk about the term, the concept, champion, championship. What does that mean when you get a group o' kids, perhaps who are not great players. I mean, wh-, how do you how do you focus on that particular aspect? Because all athletic programs finally come down to, somewhere to a champion. John Thompson:: Well I, I think it's a vast distinction between an acknowledged champion and a champion. I, I, I think that there, society has its own standards and usually that's reflected in basketball on the scoreboard. The team that comes out on top is a team that is considered the champion. But I, I, I think individually, as a coach, there are a lot of individual champions. Watching a substitute do the best that he possibly could, and work as hard as he possibly could to fulfill his innate ability, I think is a champion. I, I, I think watching a manager serve other players and work extremely hard to bring him a towel, to clean up a floor, staying late at night, is a champion. And, and I think that, that we tend to, in our society, to only acknowledge those people who r-, get public recognition, and—but I think it is the fulfillment of one's potential. And knowing and realizing that you have done the best that you possibly could with what God has given you. I, I reflect that moreso than my father. I say that John Thompson has received a lot of public acknowledgment for— John Thompson:: —what he has achieved. I, I felt that if I worked the rest of my life and achieved everything that I strive to achieve, I would never be the man that my father was, but he'd never received any public kn-, acknowledgment at all. So in my eyes, he was the greatest champion that I ever knew, because he took care of his family, he did the thing under a lot of adverse situations, and he did it in a very private way, and was totally motivated by his inner peace and his inner pride, and not with the added incentive of the crowd or the newspaper, or public acknowledgment. So I think being a champion is an individual thing. John Thompson:: I, I don't think that it i-, just rests with public acknowledgment. A lot of times p-, the public acknowledges people as champion who personally I don't feel are. Interviewer:: I think we got it. Camera Crew Member #3:: Cut. That's good. John Thompson:: Mm-hmm. Interviewer:: Coach, thank you very much. John Thompson:: Thank— [[missing frames]] [[Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]] [[missing frames]] [[tone]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] [[end of interview]] [[00:31:01:00]]