00:00:12.000 - 00:08:40.000

Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Interviewer:: Ed, in '63 Malcolm came to Chicago [sic] and spoke. Now, give me a sense of what was happening in the community around the time Malcolm came and spoke, what you were doing in the community, what people were doing in the community. Edward Vaughn:: Well, in 1963, when Malcolm came to Detroit, we were just beginning to organize the community. A few of the sisters were wearing naturals. Mrs. Mitchell was one I remember, and there were a few others that were wearing naturals. And, of course, that was quite phenomenal in the community and people just kinda looked at us. And we were basically politically organizing where we could. The Cleages had a newspaper called _The Illustrated News_. Henry Cleage and his brother Albert B. Cleage. And Richard Henry, Milton Henry were also involved with _The Illustrated News_. I was working at the post office at the time and my good friend Kwame Atta, who, who was also working with me, we were also working with GOAL, the Group on Advanced Leadership, and we were trying to mobilize the community. It was a difficult task, but people were beginning to come around, people were asking questions, people wanted to hear any speaker that came to town and they certainly wanted to hear this fiery young Muslim Minister, Malcolm X Shabazz. [[slate]] [[sic]] Interviewer:: What were you trying to tell the community? Edward Vaughn:: I think what we were trying to, to say to them- Camera Crew Member #1:: Sorry, I, I was on a move there so can we just repeat that question? Interviewer:: What were you, what were you trying to tell the community? Edward Vaughn:: I think what we were trying to say to them at that time was that we needed to control the community in which we lived. It was kinda sad that we lived in a community where we did not control the, the social, economic, and political conditions of the community. We were surrounded by a, a White police force, we called them an army of occupation. We had hardly any s in any political offices in the city. We had no judges. We had had one on the city council, a council of nine. We did not have elected officials, in, in, in any numbers. We did not own a, the si-si-significant number of businesses as we felt we should. We did not control the social life in the city. We felt that we needed to control that and that it needed a orientation. Interviewer:: Let's cut. That's good. Interviewer:: That's good. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. [[rollout on camera]] [[wild sound]] [[beep]] [[cut]] [[camera roll #2144]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: You had this bookstore. Tell me about this bookstore and what it meant. Edward Vaughn:: Well, Vaughn's Bookstore was certainly something that was new in the community. There had not been a bookstore here before. And, of course, I got into the business because I was looking for a book called _100 Hundred Years of Lynchings_ by Ginzberg and I was told downtown that they didn't have the book in stock, and I decided that I'd see if I could find it, and then when I found it and my friends at the post office said that they'd like to read that and other books, so I began to order them and sell them outta the trunk of my car. And then I, about 1962, I had opened Vaughn's Bookstore and we were beginning to sell books rather briskly. People were asking questions, and that was pretty much the mood around the bookstore. We were mainly oriented toward the people who already were Pan Africanists or Nationalists or people who were on the left in, in the movement, and they came to the store. And soon school teachers, children began to come. There was sort of an awakening in the community from New York, we were hearing about things happening there. I sold a, a magazine called _The Liberator_, and so the consciousness was being developed, and of course_ Muhammad Speaks_ and those things were happening. And so, there was a consciousness that was being raised throughout the community. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut a second. I just need you to tell me, to introduce the idea that you have a bookstore. Interviewer:: So, your bookstore is- Camera Crew Member #1:: This will be take three. Interviewer:: -was symptomatic of something that was building, part of something that was building. Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: Well, a great deal of consciousness was taking place in the community. I was selling books, I was selling a magazine called _The Liberator_. We had the Afro-American Broadcasting Company, which was broadcasting every Saturday on WGPR, broadcasting the speeches of Malcolm X practically every Saturday. We had _The Illustrated News_ newspaper which the Cleage brothers put out, Albert and Henry. The Henry brothers were working with a, a group called GOAL, and they also were responsible the A-Afro-American Broadcasting System. Central Congregational Church, pastored by Albert Cleage, was beginning to, to make some movement in this particular area. So, there was a great deal of consciousness taking place across the community and that consciousness sort of came to bloom when people like Malcolm X would come to town, or Elijah Muhammad came. Usually it was Elijah who came, and Malcolm spoke before Elijah and, of course, set the audience on fire. And that was really the, the mood of the, of the, of the times. And there, there was a great deal of change beginning to take place. Interviewer:: Cut. OK, let's move on. Camera Crew Member #1:: OK. Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: It wasn't Black Power that caused the rebellion, it was the lack of power that caused the rebellions around the country. People did not see any hope for themselves. People were beginning to be unemployed more and more. We had no access to, to government. We were still pretty much confined to the ghetto and what-and then our consciousness was being raised at the same time, and I think the masses of people made a decision that they would do something, and I think that they did. I don't think that it was the call for Black Power that did it. I think it was the lack of power that did it. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] [[slate]] [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: Tell me about the lack of power in the Detroit community. What was it? Edward Vaughn:: Well, we, we did not have anyone in- Interviewer:: Just say, "In the Detroit community..." Edward Vaughn:: In the Detroit community, we had very few people in, in political life, and usually they were very conservative, the one or two that we had. It was difficult for people in the, in the automobile industry, because of unemployment. We had the police that was an army of occupation. The police would vamp on the community, ride down on us almost nightly. The Big Four, and they were rather notorious. There were almost no Blacks on the police force, and so the police force was seen as, as an army of occupation. Economically, we weren't doing very well, our businesses were being squeezed out, especially with the oncoming of, of more acceptance of s downtown. And so, all of those things happened and I think that that turmoil caused turmoil among the people. Interviewer:: OK, cut. People were angry, they were fed up. Interviewer:: You, you, you can move your hands if you want. Edward Vaughn:: [laughs] OK. All right, I gotcha. Interviewer:: [unintelligible] Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Hit it. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: Yeah, we were driving back from Newark, myself and two other brothers in Forum 66, the organization that we had established. 'Course this was in '67, and of course we heard that- Interviewer:: It's a little too confusing. I think you just need to say, "I was with a group of brothers and we- Edward Vaughn:: OK. Interviewer:: -were coming back from New, the Newark Black Power conference. Edward Vaughn:: OK. OK. I was with two brothers and we were, we were returning from the Black Power conference in Newark and we were detained in Toledo, Ohio, and not allowed to come into the city of Detroit. We were quite concerned, worried. We could not call our families. The back-up was about three miles on the highway, and all we could hear on the radio was that they were not allowing cars to come into Detroit, that the riot had broken out in Detroit and that Detroit was under some kind of, of martial law. And we, we didn't know exactly what was happening. And we were very concerned, and we were not allowed to go into the city until about three a.m. that morning. And we kind of went in the back way of the city, we decided to do that, we went in the back way, using back roads, and we fin-all of us finally got to our homes safely. And, of course, the next day it was on again. That was Monday, it started all over again Monday. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut a second. Now, that, that wouldn't be true about the martial law. Edward Vaughn:: It wa-no it wasn't martial law. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[picture resumes]] [[slate]] [[cut]] [[slate]]

00:08:41.000 - 00:14:54.000

Interviewer:: OK. Ed tell us about when you were comin' back from Black Power conference in Newark. Edward Vaughn:: Yeah. Well, I was with two other brothers and we were detained in Toledo, Ohio. Interviewer:: No, I need you to say I was coming back from- Edward Vaughn:: Newark. OK, OK. All right. Myself and two other brothers were coming back from the Black Power conference in Newark and we were detained in Toledo, Ohio, which is about 46 miles from Detroit, and not allowed to come into the city and we were, we were detained there for several hours and not allowed to come in until around three a.m. We drove in on back roads, and we had heard that the riot was, was on. [phone rings] We had been listening to the radio all day, and- Interviewer:: I'm sorry. Edward Vaughn:: Gah. Camera Crew Member #3:: This'll be take seven. Interviewer:: And I need you to say, you know, "Our first concern [unintelligible] but then the other thing on my mind [Inaudible] got fed up. Edward Vaughn:: Yeah. Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: We were comin' from the Black Power conference in Newark, myself and two other brothers, and we heard on the radio that the riot was on in Detroit. And of course we were very concerned about it because, you know, our families were here and we didn't quite know exactly what to do. However, we were not surprised that the riot came because we knew that the unrest was there. It was seething, it had always been there, and we were not, we were not surprised that it happened. But we were concerned about our families, and we were detained in Toledo about 46 miles from Detroit for about three and a half hours, and then we were allowed to, to go into Detroit early that morning around three a.m. We went in on back roads and we were able to get to our homes safely, and 'course the next day the riot was on again. [[phone rings]] [[phone rings]] [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[Inaudible]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: How'd the, how, how did the city look to you? How did it feel to you when you got into Detroit? Edward Vaughn:: Well, it was eerie. There were, we-there was hardly anyone on the streets. We didn't see anything. No people, no nothin'. Nothin' on the streets. We didn't see anything. Interviewer:: We gotta cut. Edward Vaughn:: [unintelligible] don't come in here, please. Interviewer:: And we'll get that sense of the feel of the city- Edward Vaughn:: OK. All right. Interviewer:: -the area. You know, everything. Camera Crew Member #2:: [coughs] Camera Crew Member #3:: This'll be take eight. Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: We came into the city about three a.m. that morning and it was a rather eerie feeling that we had because no one was on the streets. I mean, it was just deserted. And we were concerned, we didn't know, you know, what was happenin' with our families, we didn't know the extent of the riot that first day. And so, we were able to get home early that morning, and of course the next day the riot was on again. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: What was it like that next day, [unintelligible] ? Edward Vaughn:: Well, the next day, the next, the first thing that I did was go straight to the bookstore. When I left home that morning, I went to my bookstore because I thought maybe that the police or someone had done something to the store. I had no fear of the people bothering anything, although we knew that they had been looting all up and down Dexter Avenue. The first thing that I saw at Vaughn's Bookstore was revolutionary slogans written all across my windows, no one had touched anything, and I owned this whole building. Camera Crew Member #1:: Marker. Interviewer:: [coughs] Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Edward Vaughn:: The next day I went to the bookstore and I, I knew, I just felt that nothin' would be wrong with my store, at least from the people, and of course I was correct. And there were revolutionary slogans written all across the windows, "Long live the Black revolution," and "As-salamu alaykum," and those kinda terms were written on the windows of the building. There were four units and my store was one of those units, and there were revolutionary slogans all across there. So, it was something that was, you know, good for me. I, I, I, I enjoyed seeing that. And, of course, I went in and it was business as usual in the bookstore, even a little more. People began to come in because everyone was trying to compare notes and to try to find out what was going to happen next. [[rollout on sound roll]] [[cut]] [[sound roll #268]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: OK, what happened then two days later? Edward Vaughn:: Well, two days later the, the Detroit Police Department broke into my store during the curfew at night. They took the, one of the guards that was in the door out and used that to bust pictures that I had all across on the walls of, of the building. They made sure that they hit the face of Malcolm X, they hit the face of Martin Luther King, I guess the ones that they recognized. And some of the others they didn't, they didn't bother, Rap Brown and Stokely. And then they fire-bombed the, the, the building, and left. Fortunately, the, the fire-bombing did not burn the building completely, it only burned part of the building. So, the next day I came into the store and I cleaned that up and people came and began to buy books and, of course, newspaper reporters came out, people from the federal government came out to, to inspect and to look. And I felt-so we cleaned up and I felt they were coming back the next night, and of course they did, they came back the next night. They knocked all of the books back off the wall, the ones that we had saved. Then they took the mop and they plugged the sink up, turned the water on, and when I got there the next day there were about eight, ten inches of water and all of my books floatin' in water. Interviewer:: Let's cut. Can you do that one again really compressed and just tell me- Edward Vaughn:: You, you gonna ask me a question? You gonna ask me? Interviewer:: No, you can pick it right up. Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Camera Crew Member #1:: One second. OK. Edward Vaughn:: Well, two days later the Detroit Police Department broke into my store during the curfew at night, took out the, the, the- Interviewer:: Well, we need to know how you knew that. You saw some witnesses, witnesses told... Edward Vaughn:: Yeah, but let me tell you what they did, then I can tell you how I found out about it. Interviewer:: OK. Edward Vaughn:: Ha. The Detroit Police Department broke into the store, knocked all of the windows out, and then busted all of my, the pictures on the wall. And so, as we were cleaning up, I didn't know what, what, what had happened to the store, but as we were cleaning up, several of the neighbors came over and told us that it [phone rings] was done by the Detroit Police Department. Damn! I thought that phone was unhooked. Interviewer:: That's OK. Edward Vaughn:: [inaudible] Camera Crew Member #1:: And here we go, marker. Camera Crew Member #1:: Oops. Sorry. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[cut]] [[slate]] [[phone rings]] [[rollout on camera roll]] [[wild sound]] [[inaudible]] [[phone rings]] [[cut]] [[camera roll #2145]] [[slate]]

00:14:55.000 - 00:19:16.000

Interviewer:: OK, Ed, tell me about when you came back to the bookstore two days later. Edward Vaughn:: Well, I noticed that the, the windows had been broken out- Interviewer:: No. I, I had come to the bookstore two days later and I noticed. Edward Vaughn:: Oh. I came to the bookstore two days later and I noticed that the windows had been broken out, noticed that the pictures had been damaged on the wall. And as I was inspecting the damage, some of the neighbors came over and told me that the Detroit Police Department had done that damage. And I noticed that they were especially interested in, in busting the faces of some of the more well-known s who were on the wall like Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. And so, I said, Well, you know, what am I gonna do? you know. So, I called the police department. First of all, I called the mayor's office and the mayor told me to call the police. I said, Well, the police did it. And so, he said, Well, call 'em anyway. So, then I called the 10th Precinct and the sergeant in charge who told me his name was Sergeant Slaughter said that, Yeah, we did it. We did it before and we'll do it again. And he said that, The reason we did it is because we heard you guys were storing guns in the store. And he said, We, you know, we, we don't intend to have any of that. And I know you guys are the ones who started the riots, and, Sure we did it and we'll do it again. And he wasn't lying 'cause the next night they came back, they broke in again, knocked all of the boards off and plugged up the sink, turned on the water and, and knocked all the books of the wall and waterlogged all of my books in about eight inches of water, and that's what I found the next day I came into the bookstore. Interviewer:: Cut. That's good. That was good. That was a good one. That was real good. Interviewer:: Remember this hardware story that, that you, you told? Edward Vaughn:: Yeah, that was over on Warren. Interviewer:: Why don't you tell us, tell, tell us that story again? Edward Vaughn:: OK. Interviewer:: [inaudible] Camera Crew Member #1:: Marker. Camera Crew Member #2:: Slate. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[inaudible]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: OK, Ed, tell me about the story on Warren at the hardware store. Edward Vaughn:: Well, what, what happened was everyone was in the store looting the store, and of course this store was- Interviewer:: Tell me- Edward Vaughn:: Yeah. Interviewer:: -"I was at the store on Warren, this hardware store on Warren." Edward Vaughn:: Yeah. I had been passing by this store, and they were looting the store, and no sooner than, you know, I noticed that I then noticed that a carload of brothers drove up, I didn't know who they were, and they asked everyone very politely had they gotten enough from the store. And everyone said, Yes, pretty much. And then they asked the others to, to make sure they got what they wanted and then asked 'em to leave and once they did that, they fire-bombed the store. They set it on fire and they left. They drove right off, they didn't take anything. Interviewer:: Who was out there? Who was out there lootin' on the street? Who was it? Was it revolutionary people like you and Milton? Edward Vaughn:: Just average people in the community. No, we were not. Interviewer:: Tell, tell me who was out there looting. Edward Vaughn:: We were not out there looting. It was just average people on, on the streets, the ones who were, were, were so-called looting. We called it takin' rather than stealin', you know, taking back some of the things that we deserved and never got. So, it was called takin'. And so, the people in the community were takin' some of the things that they did not have the opportunity to get. Interviewer:: And why? I mean- Edward Vaughn:: Well, they took them because they felt that they had been oppressed, that these things had been gained from them illegally in the first place, that prices were too high, that merchants were gouging the people in the community, and so they took it out on them. And they, they didn't feel that they were stealin' anything or, or lootin' anything, merely that they were, were taking back some of the things that they should have gotten in the first place. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut a second. Interviewer:: How do you feel about- Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark it. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[wild sound]] [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: Give me a sense of, I mean, did you feel like this was a revolution, it had come and it was finally here? Edward Vaughn:: Well, I felt like the, the revolution was here, but I also felt like we were gonna lose the revolution because I knew that you could not defeat tanks with bricks, and that there was not enough weaponry in the community to really deal with this kind of, of armaments. And, of course, we had been reading the teachings of Mao Zedong. We had been reading the Red Book and one of the things that Mao always said is that you go, never go into battle unless you're certain of victory. I was not certain of victory, and I certainly wanted the, the, the fighting to end and some kind of compromise take place. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut. Camera Crew Member #1:: And second, hit it. Camera Crew Member #1:: Thank you. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]]

00:19:17.000 - 00:23:10.000

Interviewer:: OK. The rebellion's died down. What was the attitude on the streets when you saw the other brothers and sisters on the street? What was the attitude? Edward Vaughn:: You mean after it was over. After it was over, we had a strong sense of camaraderie on the streets. People, people would greet each other, Hello, brother. Hello, sister. People would shake hands with each other. A very strong sense of, of brotherhood and togetherness was taking place on the streets. And there was more politeness, brothers ga-gave sisters more respect. It was a, a great period and we all felt very good about it. We felt that we had accomplished something, that at last we had let our, our anger come out and that anger meant that some kinda truce was, was called. And we felt that we had won that battle, and, and we just felt good about ourselves. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut a second. But what about those brothers and sisters who would say, Man, this is crazy, you just burned- Camera Crew Member #1:: Fifteen. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: OK, the reaction to some other brothers and sisters in the community who said people had burned down the city, we had burned down our own city. What would you say to that? Edward Vaughn:: Well, I mean, the, you know, we, we referred to them as Toms, they didn't- Interviewer:: OK, we, we need you to say- Edward Vaughn:: OK. Interviewer:: -"My reaction..." Edward Vaughn:: Mm-hmm. My reaction to those brothers and sisters who were negative about the riots, said that we had burned our own community down, we knew better. We refer to them as Uncle Toms. We had checked and found out that the only homes that were burned were those that were accidentally burned, and there were a, a few businesses that were destroyed, but that was because the people who ran them were, were very negative and very anti the community themselves. One of the first businesses on 12th to go was owned by a man, it was a drug store. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut. Camera Crew Member #3:: Speed. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: Ed, give me a sense of what the community was feeling like, what they, how they were acting after the rebellion had died down. Edward Vaughn:: After the rebellion was over, there was a strong sense of camaraderie in the community, a strong sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. We saw more and more sisters began to wear natural hairdos, more and more brothers began to wear their hair in, in the new natural styles. More and more people began to wear dashikis. We saw a very strong sense of, of, of camaraderie in the community. That was all very good for us and we, we enjoyed that feeling. We felt that we had accomplished something, that the riots had paid off, that we finally had gotten the White community to listen to the gripes and to listen to some of the concerns that we were, had been expressing for many years. Interviewer:: OK, let's cut. [coughs] Camera Crew Member #2:: [inaudible] glass of water Camera Crew Member #4:: - [inaudible] did you have a sense of why [unintelligible] did they say why when they, when they said- Edward Vaughn:: Hmm-mm, didn't say nothin'. Camera Crew Member #3:: Marker. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[inaudible]] [[inaudible]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: Give us that story again on Warren Street with the hardware store. Edward Vaughn:: Well, during the riots, I happened to be on Warren Avenue, West Warren, and a hardware store was being looted by a lot of people, apparently people who lived in that community, and they were just hauling all kind of things out of the store. And a carload of brothers rolled up, and I, I thought I knew all the revolutionaries in town, but I did not know who these brothers were, and they drove up and they asked everyone had they gotten enough and did they need anything else. And people said, finally said no after they had gotten what they wanted. And so these brothers said, Fine, and so they got everybody out of the store and they fire-bombed it and they left, they didn't take anything themselves. Interviewer:: OK, cut. Good. OK. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. Camera Crew Member #1:: Hit it. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]]

00:23:11.000 - 00:26:50.000

Interviewer:: So Ed, tell me about all the supposed progress in 1967, what it meant to the community. Edward Vaughn:: Well, in 1967, the Cavanagh administration, and of course we had put him in office because we were definitely opposed to the Miriani regime that had gone before Cavanagh, and so Cavanagh was elected mainly by s. And, of course, we felt that he was not movin' fast enough. He had very few appointees, and most of the federal money that was comin' into town was being used for urban renewal, which we termed "negro removal". Urban renewal means negro removal. And, of course, they were tryin' to bring more upscale Whites into our former communities, and of course s were being moved out. They built the expressways which tore open the communities, split 'em up very seriously. They built the Chrysler Freeway which tore up a very, very strong and important community. It used to be Hastings and then it became the Chrysler Freeway. And all of these things really divided these communities. And so, we did not see anything comin' from the Cavanagh administration of, of any magnitude that would bring about some fundamental change. So, we decided that we would take that effort for change to a, to a higher plain, and of course that meant being a bit more vocal, to demonstrate, to do all kind of, of activities that were designed to bring the administration around to understanding our real needs. Interviewer:: OK, cut. OK. Camera Crew Member #1:: Mark. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: So Ed, what kinda people were out there on the streets doing the looting? Edward Vaughn:: Well, during the riots, or the rebellion, there were many people on the streets looting. And at night there were people who were goin' out doing more revolutionary type activities. These people were community people, they were people who lived in the neighborhoods. They were not members of our organization by-and-large, or the organizations that were, were, were a part of the revolutionary movement. These were just spontaneous movements on the part of people in the community. I met a group of brothers who lived on Linwood near, near Davison and they, they told me that every night they went out, and with their guns, and they shot at police and National Guardsmen, and they would drive back. You know, you cut all the lights off. And they thought it was quite exciting what they were doing and they felt that they were doing something to help the people, but in terms of consciousness, they had very little of that. Interviewer:: OK, cut. How much do you have left on this? Camera Crew Member #1:: Not enough for a question. Interviewer:: OK, let's do, let's change the roll. Camera Crew Member #1:: Marker. Camera Crew Member #2:: Marker. [[beep]] [[cut]] [[camera roll #2046]] [[slate]] Interviewer:: OK, Ed. So, tell me who was out there looting and why they were out there. Edward Vaughn:: Well, during the riots the, the people who were looting or taking, the people who were in the streets, the people who were, were making the rebellion by-and-large were people who lived in the community, just average people. I came across a group of brothers, for example, who said they were just fed up and that they did not want to live like they had lived before, and every night they went out, and with their guns, and they shot at police, shot at National Guardsmen and, of course, went, went back into their home, they cut their lights off. And they did this on a nightly basis during the curfew. Most of the people were just community people who just had a, a sense that they were fed up with everything and they decided that they would strike out, and that was the way that they struck out, that was the way that they would, would strike back at the, the power structure. Interviewer:: Cut. That's good. [[cut]] [[end of interview]]