00:00:02.000 - 00:02:34.000

INTERVIEWER:: AND I’LL KIND OF RESTATE IT FOR YOU. Arthur Shores:: Yeah. INTERVIEWER:: OK, SO I’M LOOKING FOR A POINT IN TIME—AND AS SOON AS JOHN SAYS WE’RE READY— CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: YEAH, IT’S ALL YOURS. INTERVIEWER:: —WHERE YOU MIGHT HAVE FELT THAT YOU WERE MORE THAN JUST AN INDIVIDUAL BUT PART OF SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. Arthur Shores:: Yes, there was a time when I first began to practice law, the first two or three years, I became associated with the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Being the only black lawyer in the state, they retained me to represent their interests and to associate with their national counsel here in Alabama. [[camera roll 513]] [[sound roll 1507]] [[slate]] [[sync tone]] INTERVIEWER:: NOW, SOMEWHERE EARLY IN YOUR CAREER, YOU MUST HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE AUTHERINE LUCY CASE, AND I WONDER IF YOU COULD JUST COMMENT ON THAT AND THE IMPORTANCE OF IT. Arthur Shores:: Well, the Autherine Lucy case was, an application was made, in about 1952. They refused to admit her. So we filed an action in the federal court, and the federal court author-, authorized them to admit her. The University appealed the case. The case went to the United States Supreme Court, and of course the United States Supreme Court directed that she be admitted. And this was 1954, before the case had closed, and she was, they were directed to admit her at the University of Alabama. And on taking her down to the University, she was admitted, but for three days there were riots on the campus. They had to close the school down for three days. And, finally, as a result of certain statements, she was suspended or expelled. And that was the end of that particular attention of the record of, of directing of blacks to the University of Alabama. INTERVIEWER:: OK WELL, WE'LL PROBABLY COME BACK TO THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA QUESTION, BUT LET'S MOVE ON. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH THE NAACP. IN 1956, IT WAS ELIMINATED FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA BECAUSE IT FAILED TO REGISTER AS A FOREIGN CORPORATION. Arthur Shores:: Yes. INTERVIEWER:: I'VE NEVER UNDERSTOOD HOW IT WAS A FOREIGN CORPORATION. Arthur Shores:: [laughs] Well, by foreign corporation they meant a corporation not in the state of Alabama. Not organized in the state of Alabama. So all corporations that are organized in another state is a, is a foreign corporation to the state in which they seek to enter. INTERVIEWER:: OK, SO THEN, THEREFORE ANYBODY WHO REGISTERED, ANYBODY FROM OUT OF STATE HAD TO REGISTER AS A FOREIGN CORPORATON. Arthur Shores:: Yes, yes. INTERVIEWER:: I THOUGHT MAYBE IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH COMMUNIST INFLUENCE. Arthur Shores:: No, no.

00:02:35.000 - 00:08:40.000

INTERVIEWER:: OK, WELL LET'S MOVE ON THEN. ONCE, IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY SOME PEOPLE THAT ONCE THE NAACP WAS ELIMINATED IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA, THAT IT TOOK AWAY A MODERATE VOICE AND LEFT ONLY THE VOICES OF THE RADICAL WHITES AND RADICAL BLACKS TO REALLY CARRY ON THE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT FOLLOWED. Arthur Shores:: Yeah. INTERVIEWER:: HOW DO YOU SEE THAT? Arthur Shores:: Well, it was only for a short time, because we went— INTERVIEWER:: OK, COULD YOU JUST START THAT, BECAUSE NOBODY HAS HEARD MY QUESTION. NOW, JUST SORT OF COMMENT ON— Arthur Shores:: Well, when the state was enjoined from operating, that is, when the NAACP was enjoined from operating in the state, we immediately went into the courts, and it went through the courts to the United States Supreme Court, and of course they required us, them to admit us again. But during the time that we were silent, the other organization, they—there was an organization here in Birmingham, I don't recall the name just now, but it became affiliated with the SCLC, and of course, from then on, the LCLC [sic] was one of the prime movers of what was happening in the state of Alabama. INTERVIEWER:: OK, YOU MUST HAVE BEEN REFERRING TO THE ALABAMA CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS. Arthur Shores:: Yeah, that's, that was, yeah, right. That's right. INTERVIEWER:: OK, TELL ME ABOUT FRED SHUTTLESWORTH. WAS HE, WAS HE AN IMPORTANT INGREDIENT AT THIS POINT? Arthur Shores:: Quite, quite an important ingredient. As a result of his activities, he was arrested and placed in jail, and they wouldn't even permit him to have bonds or we filed action in state court. We had to appeal it to the Court of Appeals, then to the State Supreme Court, which denied it. And we appealed it to the United States Supreme Court immediately, and the justice, one of the justices of the Supreme Court directed us to again see if they would release him. And if not, then he would have a local federal judge to direct that he be released. Well, the thing about it, we were down at the Supreme Court, and when they indicated that—they knew what would happen, but I would have to get back to Birmingham, and contact the federal district judge. So they indicated that they were just going to delay until the federal judge had, had left his office. So I went in the clerk's office and called a friend of mine, Fred Gray, and told him that we would have to probably remain overnight until the, the court made its decision where we could see a federal judge. And I also called Judge Grooms and told him to wait for me. And, evidently the clerk made that known to the chief justice, and very shortly afterwards, he told us that, oh, well, he made his decision. And then of course, I immediately, immediately got in the car and came back to Birmingham. The federal judge made his order and Shuttlesworth was released. INTERVIEWER:: YOU LIVED IN A NEIGHBORHOOD ABOUT THAT TIME THAT WAS REFERRED TO FONDLY AS DYNAMITE HILL. COULD YOU TELL ME ABOUT DYNAMITE HILL? Arthur Shores:: Well, Dynamite Hill came as a result of a case that I had filed to have the zoning ordinance in the City of Birmingham declared unconstitutional. During that time, the city had a zoning ordinance which required blacks to live in certain sections, and whites in other sections, and it was a violation of the law to move into a section or property that was zoned for one of the other races. Well, a black man bought a piece of property that was zoned for white and had a house built on it. And when the house was completed he applied for a certificate of occupancy. And the city refused. We went into the federal court and the court directed the city to issue the certificate of occupancy. And the night after this certificate of occupancy was issued, that house was completely destroyed by dynamite. Then of course, the, we next had to file a suit to have that, the ordinance declared unconstitutional, which was finally declared unconstitutional by a federal judge. And that house was dynamited and one end was blown off. And then, of course, right across the street, Center Street, on the side of Center Street where I lived, half of that block was zoned for white and the other half for black. Well, blacks began to buy property on that half, and whites across the street begin moving out. They sold their houses to blacks, and before black could move in that house was, was blown up, dynamite, or either, or either burned. And what broke it up there was, the blacks had hired a white member who infiltrated the Klan, and the Klan notified him that on a certain night, a certain house that had been recently purchased, would be either burned or dynamited. And at the appointed hour, blacks had secreted themselves across from this house, and when the whites came up, they opened gunfire. One white was killed and several were wounded. Nothing was ever placed in the paper about it. And that broke it up. There was no more burning there until several years later in 1963, I believe it was, when the schools were integrated.

00:08:51.000 - 00:13:22.000

INTERVIEWER:: IN 1962, THERE WAS AT THAT TIME A PLAN TO CHANGE THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT IN THE CITY OF BIRMINGHAM. WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD ABOUT THAT, DID YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS REALLY GOING TO IMPROVE THINGS FOR THE BLACK POPULATION IN BIRMINGHAM? Arthur Shores:: Well, we felt that it would. That a county system that we have now, the mayor-council form, that we would be able to get more liberal persons elected to the council— INTERVIEWER:: OK. Arthur Shores:: —and a mayor who was— INTERVIEWER:: LET, LET ME KIND OF DIRECT YOUR ANSWER THERE ALONG THE LINES—SOME OF THIS, AS I UNDERSTAND, WAS DIRECTED TOWARD BULL CONNOR AND PERHAPS ART HAYNES— Arthur Shores:: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —TRYING TO GET THEM OUT OF POWER. SO COULD YOU KIND OF ADDRESS YOUR ANSWER TO, TO THE PEOPLE THAT WERE INVOLVED THEN, AND THE REASON THERE WAS NEED FOR CHANGE. Arthur Shores:: Well, of course, Bull Connor was, was a person who, ordinarily, having charge of the police department. He was the one who kept things as they were. For instance, you've probably seen the pictures where he had his dogs and fire hoses attacking blacks who were marching. And of course it was, I mean, the situation was unbearable under Bull Connor, and as well as Art Haynes, as the, as the mayor. INTERVIEWER:: OK— Arthur Shores:: But you know one thing during the, during those times, blacks didn't have any political power. Blacks were not voting, and many of the persons who were in office, really, in order for them to be elected to office, they had to come out strong against blacks participating. And shortly after the few black votes that were, when they sought to get the, the support of these blacks, they would not attend black meetings openly. They would clandestinely act in support of blacks without letting the general public know about it. INTERVIEWER:: DID ALBERT BOUTWELL DO THAT? Arthur Shores:: No, things had changed by that time. We had gone into court. And blacks were being registered, even then, in considerable numbers. So as a result, whites begin to court— Arthur Shores:: –and blacks begin to organize. INTERVIEWER:: WE’VE JUST RUN OUT. [[cut]] [[wild audio]] [[cut]] CAMERA CREW MEMBER 3:: SOUND IS ON. I HAVE SPEED. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: OK, AND MARK. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU. INTERVIEWER:: IN 1963, THE NEW GOVERNMENT WAS, WAS ELECTED. ALBERT BOUTWELL WAS ELECTED MAYOR AFTER THE RUNOFF WITH BULL CONNOR. SUDDENLY THERE WERE TWO FORMS— Arthur Shores:: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —OF GOVERNMENT IN THE CITY, AND THEN DR. KING AND THE SCLC STARTED THEIR CAMPAIGN. THERE WAS ALREADY CHANGE COMING IN BIRMINGHAM— Arthur Shores:: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —DID YOU THINK DR. KING'S INTERVENTION WAS NECESSARY AT THAT POINT? Arthur Shores:: Well, as results of the result, we felt that it was, because it seemed, nationally, on television, the fire hoses and the dogs, it pricked the conscience of the country. Congress immediately began passing the legislation. The Equal Rights Act, then subsequently the Voter Rights Act where it sent federal registrars into the state. And that had a tremendous impact on change. INTERVIEWER:: WERE THESE ROLE— Arthur Shores:: So I, so I would attribute it to, largely, right along through there. See, we had been using the courts, which was a very slow process. And we had to go from county to county and file suits. But, when the civil rights act was passed, as a result of what they had—Congress and the people of this country—had seen happening here, it changed the whole situation here in this state. [[camera roll 514]] [[slate]] [[sync tone]] INTERVIEWER:: IT SEEMS LIKE THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS AT WORK HERE. ONE WAS A NEED TO CHANGE BIRMINGHAM, BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF BIRMINGHAM WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY CHANGED THE NATION— Arthur Shores:: Yeah, yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —AND LED TO NATIONAL LEGISLATION. Arthur Shores:: That’s right, that’s right. INTERVIEWER:: WERE THOSE TWO THINGS THAT— Arthur Shores:: Certainly, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: OK, I’M JUST WONDERING IF A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING FOR BIRMINGHAM AND FELT THAT THIS NATIONAL THING BECAME AN INTRUSION. Arthur Shores:: Well, as a result of the action in Congress, the people who were elected by the people throughout the country, I should think that the whole country was—well, the majority, anyway—was in favor of what was happening.

00:13:23.000 - 00:18:06.000

INTERVIEWER:: OK, I'M, I’M TRYING TO GET RIGHT BACK INTO BIRMINGHAM, THOUGH, BECAUSE YOU'RE LOOKING AT THINGS FROM WHAT, HOW THEY TURNED OUT, AND I'M JUST KIND OF WONDERING WHAT THE FEELINGS WERE DURING THOSE DAYS IN BIRMINGHAM. BURKE MARSHALL FINALLY HAD TO COME IN. THINGS GOT SO OUTRAGEOUS— Arthur Shores:: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —THAT BURKE MARSHALL CAME IN FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO— Arthur Shores:: Right, right, right. INTERVIEWER:: —NEGOTIATE A SETTLEMENT WITH THE CITY. WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THOSE NEGOTIATIONS? Arthur Shores:: Well, of course, such a radical change to a city that had been in the situation it was, the separation of the races, by law, naturally, it was a traumatic experience for those who didn't appreciate that, and they still were reluctant to give in to give in to it until, you say, Burke Marshall came in, and I forget what other government officials came in to see if we couldn't get together on some basis. And as a result of that, the power structure of this city saw the need of change. And as I probably mentioned to you on the telephone, as a result of this, Operation New Birmingham grew out of that. INTERVIEWER:: OK, LET'S JUST KIND OF GO ON A LITTLE BIT TO BEYOND THE, THE DEMONSTRATIONS AT THAT TIME. IN JUNE OF '63, OF COURSE, THAT WAS WHEN GEORGE WALLACE MADE GOOD ON HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISE TO STAND IN THE SCHOOLHOUSE DOOR. AND YOU WERE THERE WITH VIVIAN J. MALONE, I BELIEVE. Arthur Shores:: Yes, yes. INTERVIEWER:: TELL ME ABOUT THE DAY YOU ACCOMPANIED HER INTO SCHOOL. Arthur Shores:: Well, if I might go back a little. INTERVIEWER:: OK. Arthur Shores:: We had been notified to come to Washington, me along with one or two other of my associates, and the Attorney General notified us that the governor was going to carry out his campaign promise to stand in the schoolhouse door, but when he is, requested to step aside, that he would step aside. And then of course, we did accompany her, with Katzenbach, who was Assistant U.S. Attorney. And the milit-, state militia had been federalized, so they accompanied us to Montgomery, to see, I mean, to Tuscaloosa, to see that she was admitted. And General Graham, who was, who was the leader of the militia, when we approached the governor, I mean, he was there in the door. And General Graham instructed that, Governor, it's my unpleasant to tell you to step aside. And the governor made a little speech and immediately stepped aside, so there was nothing else about it. That’s, it went on off smoothly. She remained there, she graduated, and, subsequent to that, many blacks have graduated. I have even received an honorary doctorate degree as the first black from the University of Alabama. And I say, it's ironic, when I carried the first black there, they had to close the school for three days as a result of riots. And in 1976, '76, they awarded me this honorary doctorate degree. INTERVIEWER:: THAT IS IRONIC. I'D LIKE TO JUST SORT OF PICK AT YOUR MEMORY ABOUT A FEW PEOPLE, IF I COULD. I'M GONNA MENTION— Arthur Shores:: Yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —SOME NAMES, I'D JUST LIKE YOU TO KIND OF GIVE ME A COMMENT OR TWO ABOUT EACH OF THESE PEOPLE, IF YOU WOULD. SID SMYER. Arthur Shores:: Sid Smyer, you know, who was an outstanding citizen of Birmingham, highly respected, member of the, not only the social elite, but the business community. I recall, I don't recall the exact statement now, but he indicated that things had to change here in Birmingham. So, he was one of those who were instrumental in helping to form the Operation New Birmingham. INTERVIEWER:: DAVID VANN. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: I’M SORRY. Arthur Shores:: David– CAMERA CREW MEMBER 2:: TAKE A LITTLE PAUSE HERE. LET’S JUST CUT FOR ONE SEC– CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: I HAVE SPEED. AND MARK. INTERVIEWER:: OK. ALL SET? CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: YEAH, IT’S ALL YOURS. INTERVIEWER:: ALL RIGHT, DAVID VANN. TELL ME ABOUT DAVID VANN. Arthur Shores:: Well, David Vann was one of the outstanding proponents of change. He was a brilliant, I say, young lawyer. I believe he was at the University of Alabama when I carried the first black there. He was a student there. And David had the respect of the community, so he was very instrumental in helping to bring about the changes that we enjoyed thereafter. [[cut]] [[sync tone]]

00:18:07.000 - 00:21:07.000

INTERVIEWER:: HOW DO YOU FEEL, OR HOW DO YOU REMEMBER GEORGE WALLACE WHEN HE WAS FIRST ELECTED GOVERNOR BACK IN ‘62, ‘63? Arthur Shores:: Well, Wallace, really, today he's typified as the personification of, of—what shall I say?—of, of race discrimination. But my association with Wallace, I feel that, all of that was political, for this reason. As I say, your politicians, in order to be elected, had to be racist before blacks had any voting power. I tried a case before Wallace, I forget how many years ago it was, but he was a circuit judge down in Barber County. And my case lasted a week. I was attacking the jury system. Blacks being excluded from the jury. And in this little town, it wasn't a nice place where I could eat, so Wallace would send out and get food, and we ate in his chambers. And that case was never finally decided, because if it had been decided against us, we would have carried it to the Supreme Court, and that system would have been eliminated. So the case just rocked on and died of its own motion. INTERVIEWER:: NOW YOU, YOU DESCRIBE A VERY TENDER STORY ABOUT GEORGE WALLACE THAT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER WITH THE WAY PEOPLE THINK— Arthur Shores:: That's what, that’s what I say. INTERVIEWER:: HOW CAN THESE TWO PEOPLE LIVE IN THE SAME PERSON? Arthur Shores:: Well, as I said it was politics. Politics, that's what it was. That's exactly what it was. As I say, he wasn't, he had indicated that he wasn't going to have any resistance when we brought Viv Malone down, just going to make a show that he had promised the electorate, which was predominantly white, that before he admitted a black to the University of Alabama, that he would stand in the schoolhouse door. [laughs] And that's what he did, was just pure politics. INTERVIEWER:: [laughs] Arthur Shores:: Now, for instance, well, no need in going back to Bull Connor. INTERVIEWER:: GO AHEAD. GO BACK TO BULL CONNOR. Arthur Shores:: Well now, Bull Connor, although it, it indicated how he acted during the demonstration [unintelligible] , but blacks had been, been trying to get some blacks on the police force. And Connor contacted me and a few others to see if we could get four or five blacks who would, would be interested and join the police force. And that he would see that they were appointed. But we were never able, I mean, the image that the police department portrayed, we just couldn't get a black at that time who was willing to become a member of the police. INTERVIEWER:: WHAT WAS THAT IMAGE THEY PORTRAYED? Arthur Shores:: Well, the same image that you saw when they would, had the dogs attacking blacks.

00:21:08.000 - 00:22:53.000

INTERVIEWER:: BUT DIDN'T THAT REFLECT BULL CONNOR? Arthur Shores:: Well, it, it, it, he was, he was satisfying the people who put him in power. That's what he was doing. INTERVIEWER:: THERE ARE SOME WHO SAY BULL CONNOR DIDN'T NECESSARILY REFLECT THE PEOPLE. THEY THINK THAT HE OVERRODE THE PEOPLE. I MEAN, THERE WERE— Arthur Shores:: Well, it did, he did, because the power structure put Bull Connor in office, and it, it finally came to the point where the power structure could not control Bull Connor. And they were helpful in seeing that some change did take place, because of the image that this city portrayed throughout the country. INTERVIEWER:: DO YOU REMEMBER WYATT TEE WALKER FROM THOSE DAYS? Arthur Shores:: Oh, yes, yes. INTERVIEWER:: TELL ME ABOUT WYATT. Arthur Shores:: Well, Wyatt Tee Walker was very instrumental and supportive of King, and he participated in these demonstrations, and in the— Arthur Shores:: —meetings in various churches. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 2:: And we’ve just rolled out. [[cut]] [[wild audio]] [[cut]] INTERVIEWER:: —TWO MORE MINUTES. Arthur Shores:: OK, OK. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 2:: SOUND IS ROLLING. SPEED. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: AND MARK, PLEASE. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: THANK YOU, SIR. INTERVIEWER:: YOU TOLD ME ABOUT WHEN FRED SHUTTLESWORTH WAS IN JAIL AND THE EFFORTS YOU WENT THROUGH, I WONDER IF YOU WOULD JUST TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FRED SHUTTLESWORTH AS YOU REMEMBER HIM. WHAT, WHAT WAS HIS ROLE IN ALL THIS? Arthur Shores:: Well, he was one of the—Well, I would say, the chief lieutenant of King here in Birmingham, he had formed the, when the NAACP was outlawed, he formed the Christian—what’s the name of the thing? Christian… INTERVIEWER:: THAT’S OK. Arthur Shores:: Yeah. Well, he formed his organization, that took the place of the NAACP, and then of course, when King came, he was his right-hand man. He went to jail with him. [[slate]] [[camera roll 515]] [[sync tone]]

00:22:54.000 - 00:26:19.000

INTERVIEWER:: WHAT KIND OF A PERSON WAS HE? WAS HE HOT-HEADED? Arthur Shores:: Well, he was, I wouldn't say hot-headed, but he was, whatever he undertake [sic] to do, he, he saw that it was done or attempted to see that it was done. Yeah. INTERVIEWER:: OK, YOU'VE HAD A NUMBER OF OUTSTANDING EXPERIENCES IN THE HISTORY OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT YOURSELF, DR. SHORES. AUTHERINE LUCY— Arthur Shores:: Yeah. INTERVIEWER:: —THE SCHOOLHOUSE DOOR WITH VIVIAN MALONE, AND THE LIST JUST GOES ON. WHAT IS YOUR OUTSTANDING MEMORY? WHAT DO YOU THINK IS YOUR FINEST HOUR, YOUR MAJOR CONTRIBUTION TO ALL THIS? Arthur Shores:: Well, in several counties, even before the university case, Viv Malone and Autherine Lucy, but where blacks were denied the right to register, I have gone from the Tennessee line down to Mobile, in various counties, bringing lawsuits which required blacks to be registered to vote. And one of the outstanding cases here in this county, where six of us sought to become members of the State Executive Democratic Committee, and they refused to accept our fees for, to be listed as candidates and we went into federal court and they were required to do so, and all six of us were elected, and I'm still a member of the State Executive Democratic Committee. And on three occasions, was an elected member to the state—well, for the National Democratic Committee. And I think, I believe I was the first black who actually addressed the National Democratic Committee. I was on the Credentials Committee from Birmingham, only two of us: a white woman, who was from Mobile, and myself. And, however, these two were more outstanding—the incident at the schoolhouse door, and that sort of thing—but there were many other cases that advanced the welfare of blacks even before those cases. That zoning ordinance. INTERVIEWER:: OK, I THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DR. SHORES. OH, THAT’S RIGHT. YEAH. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1:: MARK. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 2:: YOU CAN TELL THIS TO JIM. SO WHAT DID, WHAT DID BULL CONNOR LOOK LIKE? Arthur Shores:: Well, he was short, I guess about 5’6, and I believe, I believe as I recall, one of his eyes was—I'm not too sure about that—but as I recall, one of, he was blind in one eye. I'm not too sure about that. But, he was a very cordial person, ordinarily, to people whom he liked, [laughs] but to those that—well, publicly, he al-, as I recall, he always appeared pleasantly, cordial. [[cut]] [[sync tone]] INTERVIEWER:: WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEMONSTRATIONS WITH FIREMEN— Arthur Shores:: Oh, my, he was a fireball during these demonstrations. He was like a madman almost. He got out and helped to lead his firemen and policemen.

00:26:20.000 - 00:27:06.000

INTERVIEWER:: WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM? WHY DID HE BECOME LIKE THAT? Arthur Shores:: Well, I mean, he felt what was happening. You know, we had a number of people from the north, as I recall, the, the governor's mother, of Massachusetts, I believe, I believe, one of the New England states, marched here in Birmingham. And we had numerous white persons, as well as black persons, from out of the state who marched in these demonstrations. So that, that, that, that thoroughly [laughs] got Bull, Bull pretty much aroused, to see all these Yankees coming down here. INTERVIEWER:: OK, [laughs] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. [[cut]] [[end interview]]